Installing new brakes - VS Commodore (twin spot upgrade)

[scarecrow420]

I have a VS commodore and I have recently purchased all the parts necessary to do a VT twin piston upgrade on my car.

I have

2 * PBR twin piston calipers
2 * DBA 296mm xdrilled/slotted rotors (with the correct centre diameter for VS model)
2 * stainless braided hoses
Bendix advance pads

also im replacing the rears with stock size
2 * PBR calipers (brand new)
2 * DBA 270mm xdrilled/slotted rotors
Bendix advance pads

I am just going to be using the standard master cylinder and brake booster for the time being at least. Also planning on re-using the existing rear brake lines.

Now I have bled my brakes before, and I am familiar with how to do this, but i am not sure on what to do when installing all new hardware.

Do i bleed/flush the brake system while the existing calipers etc are on there, then clamp the hoses before installing the new gear on?

Or is it fine to bleed thee whole system dry, then install all the new hardware, then fill it all up with new fluid and bleed any air out as yoiu would normally?

Also are there any other things i'll need when doing this?

Will i have problems with the pistons in the calipers, or since there has never been pads in them am I cool to just fit the pads up to them and bolt them to the car?

I am generally mechanically competent i just dont really know much about the calipers/rotors/pads.

I do have a workshop manual but obviously it only covers VS stock items, not VT and onwards twin piston calipers. When doing a brake pad change, you normally need to undo one of the caliper lock nuts so you can swivel it up to fit the pads in. Do i have to do that with my brand new calipers or can i fit the pads without opening the caliper up? If i do have to remove the locknut, do ineed to replace them with new ones? Also will i need a c-clamp or something to push the pistons into the caliper and fit the pads, or is that only once they have fluid running through them that you have to do that?

I am considering just getting a brake shop to install them but I also want to take this opportunity to learn more about them and get some hadns on experience fitting them myself if I can. I have 2 competent housemates to help as well ;-)

Any and all comments appreciated. Sorry for the influx of questions!

[dattoman1000]

6 cans
2 hours
some tools ( and I don't mean the ones you live with)

Its a reasonably easy setup to do.

Fit the pads before you fit the calipers.
Bleed the system after the job is complete
You are replacing your hoses so you can't bleed first and clamp them as you mentioned.

I would leave the cap firmly in place on the master till you have everything on then suck the fluid out with a syringe and then flush new fluid thru.
If your pushing any pistons back into calipers as I imagine you will with the rear make sure you loosen the bleeder first so as not to force fluid back up to master. Let it squirt out the bleeder so your not cycling old fluid back up (especially if you have ABS)

[Trevor@BDA]

If you get caught, give us a call on 5563 9236 and we we see if we can talk you through any problems.
Whereabouts in Brisbane are you??
Regards
Trevor @ BDA

[scarecrow420]

Hey guys, thanks for the help.... I will be doing it all next weekend - sounds like it shouldnt be too much of a prob.

Thanks for the offer of tech assistace over the phone :D If i get in a pickle ill be sure to give ya a call Trevor! I live at wilston which is on the northside (about 10 or 15mins from the city/valley).

One thing though - would it be better to drain the existing (no doubt very dirty) brake fluid from the existing lines etc, before hooking them up to the new hardware... then give a real proper flush and bleed, just to avoid actually flushing the old crappy fluid through the new steel lines and calipers which have never had any fluid in 'em before?

Also should I get new bolts to bolt the caliper anchor plates to the struts/car, or can i just use the existing ones?

Does the normal VS front caliper use the same size as a VT caliper or will i need to buy VT ones? I will take a trip down to my holdne dealer this week and sus it out...


Also with the brakepads, im after something that doesnt wear the rotors too much (at least until they are bedded in). Also since ive gone for slotted and x-drilled i have to be careful they dont crack etc. It wont be used for track work anything, just street driving, a ferw trips to willowbank. I must admit they are equally for the looks factor as they are for improved braking. The calipers needed overhauling anyway and the rotors need replacing so i figured why not :D

So i was going to go with just Bendix Advance pads... although maybe Performax. Things like EBC greenstuff or any metallic pads will be too harsh on the rotors...

Does anyone have any suggestions on pad selection? I haventy actually bought them yet.

[spirit123]

You can use the original bolts BUT make sure you use locktight on the thread.
I have done the same conversion as you last week and I didn't want a pad that was too harsh either but good all the same so I was advised to get Ferodo Formula pads (part no. DB1331ff). I was going to get Bendix Ultimates but these are apparently better AND not harsh but are expensive, I paid $150 for them.
Good luck!!!

[crusin']

Well I'm one of scarecrow's "tools" and I'll be doing a pad change this coming weekend too (EL Ford Fairmont Ghia V8). Spirit123, do these Ferodo Formula pads need to be warmed up to grab properly (like the Bendix Ultimates)? I was considering the Ultimates or the Advanced and had never heard of these Ferodo's until now. What would you recommend on the standard rotors? If I go Ultimates, will the EAT my standard rotors such that they’ll need replacing after 10,000? Although my standard rotors are in good nick, I'll be getting a micrometer soon to check that there is enough width left in them... if not I'll be looking at DBA slotted rotors so I'd like pads that work well with them too. Also I'm embarrassed at the size of my stock front callipers... here (http://members.iinet.net.au/~scarecrow420/EL/front_after.jpg) is a picture of them. apparently a calliper upgrade is very costly and some good pads and upgraded rotors will provide a noticeable improvement even with the standard callipers. Is this the case? :)

[spirit123]

ALthough my pads arn't fully bedded in yet they seem to work just as well when they are cold. As I said I was going to buy the Ultimates but I changed my mind when I heard that they were harsh and I had just bought new slotted discs so I didn't want the stuff them up too quickly:)
If I were you I would pay the extra and get the ferodo (if they are made for your car).
Yeah,I've noticed the size of the Ford callipers before, they ARE tiny:p Actually by that picture my VT callipers look like double the size of those (not that size matters:D )
Ask dattoman,trevorBDA or DBAsteve they will be able to give you informed answers to your questions.

[Trevor@BDA]

I haven't had any experience with the Ferodo pads in question so cannot give an accurate answer on them - Dattoman - have you had any through your workshop at this point?
I have used Ultimates in the past, but I am sure that the compound would have changed since then. I have not heard complaints about them being excessive wear wise - particularly in comparison to other "performance pads".
You are right in that a change of rotors to slotted DBAs and a decent set of pads will work better than a standard set up.

Trevor @ BDA

[Trevor@BDA]

I haven't had any experience with the Ferodo pads in question so cannot give an accurate answer on them - Dattoman - have you had any through your workshop at this point?
I have used Ultimates in the past, but I am sure that the compound would have changed since then. I have not heard complaints about them being excessive wear wise - particularly in comparison to other "performance pads".
You are right in that a change of rotors to slotted DBAs and a decent set of pads will work better than a standard set up.

Trevor @ BDA

[dattoman1000]

Still early days for the Ferodo Formula.......they are proving to be good so far though.
Good wear rate......no disc damage.
Actually we put a set of DB6's onto the state champ HQ racers car here and after 70 laps there is no disc wear and the pads still have half meat on them. 4000 series rotors.
Now he's going to run Ultimates for the next 2 meeting so we can have some back to back results.
He said the Ferodos felt "agressive' but just learnt how to drive with them. 12 laps no fade. Good solid feel thru the whole race.

[scarecrow420]

hmmmm makes me contemplate getting these ferodos...

i was mainly worried about rotor wear and the possibility of cracking the disc as I have opted for the cross drilled and slotted DBA's. The guy from a performance brake shop i spoke to about it said that he had seen uite a few cars running ultimates on xdrilled DBAs that have had bad wear and/or cracks.

Is there any dramas in fitting ferodos to the front but just bendix advance on the back? I have already got the calipers, rotors and pads (bendix advance) for the rear, and i already have the twin piston calipers, rotors and lines for the front... the only thing left to get is front pads and fluid.

Re my question earlier about flushing... is it better if I flush each brake line dry before connecting up the new calipers and lines, then put new fluid through and bleed out all the air? Just to avoid running crappy old fluid through all my new brake equipment.

Should I be ok with 1L of new fluid, or maybe should i go for 1.5 litres of it? Also can someone recommend some fluid (DOT 5.1 i figured id go for). Im willing to spend money to get decent stuff if its worth it, but at the same time i wont be sending $100 on fluid.


heh, so t o sumarise my questions,

1) any probs running ferodos on front and advance on the rear
2) flush lines dry then fit new stuff, or fit new stuff then flush
3) fluid recommendations and amount required

[scarecrow420]

I'm all good to go for the weekend now...

Ive got bendix advance pads and castrol response fluid (DOT4/5.1 compliant).

The rear calipers and rotors got delivered today... man those little guys are so small compared to the VT twinnies! :D

Just got to get them painted up and ready for sunday.