View Full Version : Bang for Buck
I currently own a 3T-GTEU powered TA-22 Celica & have it set up quite well in the handling & braking departments, but I am evaluating different options to improve the power output.
I am looking to develop an engine that can produce at least 300rwhp / around 430flyw hp with a "useable" power curve - suited for circuit racing.
Reliability is also a crucial factor also.
I am looking at continuing to super sprint it at Phillip Island, Winton, Sandown & Calder (if it is still available??)
The choices I have been investigating are:
- Rebuilding the current 3T-GTEU
- Selling off the 3TG & replacing it with something like....
- 3S-GTE turbo & rebuilding it
- 13B Turbo
- try shoe-horning in a 2JZ-GTE
Given that I already have a working standard 3TG in the vehicle, this would be my favoured option as I would not need to go out & purchase a new engine... but, if I can't get the right HP out of it, then I may as well start-over with something new.
I would be looking at doing the labour myself & have built many successful naturally aspirated race engines, from 4A-GEs to 13B bridgeports, but I don't have a lot of experience with Turbo engines.
Can anyone recommend which "path" I should take that would give me these results, while keeping it to a decent budget?
I am particularly interested in anyone who has faced a similar choice already & could share with me some of their wisdom.
is it road registered? if not you may have to run a restrictor with any forced induction setup depending on your class.
a 2J weighs in the order of 180kg from what I understand, so it'd really ruin whatever handling the car has.
a 3SGTE is around $3500 for a front cut. an SR20DET is about a grand less and similar power, and is all alloy.
to turbo your 3T would really require conversion to EFI, a cam change (if you are running a lumpy one), and be lots of labour, but could be quite cheap parts wise if you are lucky enuff to find an EFI manifold.
look for a VG30 or RB25 ball bearing turbo, should be around the $500ish mark second hand.
I'd either go the SR20 or turbo the 3T.
Thanks for the reply..
I am already running a 3T-GTEU turbo which already has the efi manifold & standard ct20 turbo...Maybe I should have given the full engine specs that I currently have.
While the engine in its current form goes reasonably well, it is a fair way off the 300+rwhp / 450fwhp that I am looking for.
Would the VG30 or RB25 on a 3T-GTEU produce this sort of HP I am looking for???
I hadn't thought of the SR-20 option, as I have heard good reports about this engine.
The only thing, is that I would need to start back at square 1, sell off the current engine & re fit the SR-20... with all that is involved in doing that, I wonder if I could better spend the money on the 3T-GTEU instead?
What are your thoughts?
21-08-03, 04:32 PM
i'd say get hold of a 3TGTE and stick it in, minimal modifications to get it to fit, and wouldnt upset the weight balance hideously. then fit a gt25, T28 or GT28 and a decent cooler and three inch exhaust (and aftermarket management)
TurboRA28 has this very engine in a first gen celica at the moment, round 150kw at the wheels, i think he is in the process of upgrading to a 3sgte, send him a PM if he doesnt wander into this thread.
then all you need to do is something about your steering box.
Hi Shinyblue steel ... thanks for the reply.
The 3TG that I already had installed that was reffereing to is a 3T-GTEU....
sorry, I should have made that clearer in my first post.
So what I am trying to work out is, can I get the 3T-GTEU to give me this sort of HP (300+rwhp / 450fwhp) reliably, or would I be better off starting again with another engine & be able to get more HP without spending as much on the engine?
By the way... to answer the question about it being road registered..
Yes, it was... my daily ride & I had the 3T-GTEU / Supra 5sp / custom diff / adj front struts / custom brakes all engineer approved around 7 years ago when I lived in Adelaide.
Since I moved to Melbourne I found it wasn't very "traffic friendly" or "speeding fine friendly" so I decided to use it for track use only & since then has not been registered.
I have built the car so far to IPRA regulations, but I am currently not really concerned about which category I run it in, as long as I can run it in some super-sprint category (even if I am in with the "big boys")
Eventually, I may be looking to ad a restrictor & race it as a IPRA vehicle, or maybe go full on into a Sports sedan...but I would prefer to have some more fun just sprinting it without having it restricted for at least the next couple of years.
So given this, would you have any different suggestions?
whoops! you did say 3TGTEU...my bad :)
I think you could probably get 300hp at the wheels with the 3T but it'd be a bit of a grenade motor. What ECU are you using? if it's a stock one, I'd spend the money on a motec or autronic, big intercooler and fitting the VG30 turbo, and run as much boost as your fuel will allow. hope you have good oil pressure though! :)
Firstly, you need to consider which class you want to continue competing in. Then check regulations on which engines you can choose.
I would imagine, that most classes will require a restrictor in front of the Turbo. The only class I know of that does not, is Sports Sedans. Also, some classes have restrictions on using different engine/chassis combinations. eg. Nissan engine in Toyota chassis.
All this being said, I think you will be stretching it to get 300rwhp from the 3TG. From memory they are only an 8 valve head, and may not be able to flow enough air to make the required horsepower.
Your best bet would be to go for the 3SG Turbo. much better head (16v) and should be able to generate the horsepower you are looking for without too much trouble. One piece of advice, for circuit racing a turbo car. Try to keep the compression ratio up, this will help to reduce lag and give the car a bit more drive out of corners if it falls off boost.
21-08-03, 04:59 PM
id say it would cost a fair bit to get a 3TGTE to put out 450 kw.
it would also be fairly expensive to get this power out of a 3SGTE. according to the ZOOM 3sgte tuners guide (don't hate me) youl need forged pistons, prepped rods, cams, turbo, etc.
they mention the HKS drag celica which makes 550 kw @ 2.1 bar with a HKS GT3240.
are you sure you need this much power for a curcuit car? thats pretty extreme power, and would have lots and lots of turbo lag i would say.
i wouldn't want more than 200Kw at the wheels, and id want nice power delivery.
anyway, by now lots of people will have posted before me, so ill just leave it there for now.
I think he was after 450 Horse power, not kilowatts. That makes it a little cheaper. Probably will still need Forged Pistons and a good set of rods either way.
No matter how you look at it, that sort of horsepower is going to cost big bucks, if you want it reliable.
Yes, that is what I was thinking that I could get the HP, but reliability would start becoming an issue when I am trying to get this much out of the 3T-GTEU.
I would be looking at going oversized forged pistons, getting as much flow as I can out of the head, getting some cams made up to match, o-ringing, copper head gaskets, bigger intercooler, etc.. & while this all gives a more reliable engine, I am wondering for the same amount of $$$ I spend that I might be better spending the money on something like a 3S-GTE???
What sort of $$$ do you reckon I would need for just the parts & me doing the labour $5000 / $7000 / $10000
I am not too concerned about running it in any category though. I used to race a club car - RX3 bridgeport over in SA 8 years ago, & at the moment I am more intersted in just going out to a track & racing something that is a sedan that is as fast as I can afford. I am not that much for racing against anyone else... not at this stage anyway.
I hear what you are saying with the sports sedan rules, I would need to keep the engine at least with the same manufacter / type if I were to enter in any sort of class.
I was kinda hoping that I could build up the 3T-GTEU to be a solid performer, but it is looking like I am going to have to start over again, engine mounts, gearbox bellhousings, etc....
I guess I was hoping to hear from someone who has built a solid 3T-GTEU & could say... Yeah 300 rw hp / 450 fw hp (225rwkw / 335 fwkw) should be easy to get out of it / reliably
So would you say, time to advertise the 3T-GTEU? & start looking for a 3S-GTE?? Or can anyone else suggest anything better?
Sorry 3TG, didn't see your last post.....Too damn slow again!
IPRA requires a 36mm restrictor, So if class is of no concern you could go unrestricted and play with the sports sedan guys - you could even run slicks then too! WOOHOO!
I would go for the 3SG though....at least then you will be ready to come and race in IPRA down the track..... Come and line up with My FJTurbo powered Sunny (if it ever gets finished!)
21-08-03, 05:13 PM
Contact TA22-3sgte on these forums. He has a TA22 with a 3sgte (duh) and is making last time i heard 260kw@wheels (somewhere around that figure). He still had standard high flowed turbo. There were other mods but the potential is certainly there so long as your willing to go the hard yards converting what has always been a FWD engine into a RWD car.
You must have read my mind... I would love to run it on full slicks, as I have designed the suspension to work best with full slicks, but up until now have only been running formula-R tyres.
If I have to change the car back & chuck a restrictor in later down the track, It would probably when it is time for a rebuild, so I would probably rebuild the engine / turbo to work with the 36mm restrictor... but for now, I want max HP for min $$
So what sort of HP are you looking to get out of our FJ20?
Is there any reason why I shouldn't be able to match that in the 3S-GTE?
Sounds like I will have to speak with TA22-3SGTE & find out how to get 260rwkw out of it with a standard highflowed turbo (I think they have the CT-26 in it from memory)
I'm looking at getting 220-240 rwhp. The restrictor is a real killer!
The best figures I have seen are a 2.5L Volvo 740 Turbo. He is getting 266rwhp.
the 3T will be the cheaper option, but as mentioned performance will be limited by technology.
the 3S is a gem of a motor, but you will end up needing an aftermarket ECU, big cooler and possibly a turbo change to get the big numbers anyway, so why dont you motec/intercool and VG30 turbo the 3T and use all this gear on the next motor if the 3T doesnt do what you want?
thats my approach :)
21-08-03, 06:35 PM
Yeah i agree with a few ppl..
300rwhp from a 3tgte is going to be very difficult and it would have to have forged everything, huge cams, expensive turbo and a gem of an ecu and a good tuner..
Im not saying you wont get it, because you can but in my opinion its going to be easier with a 3sgte.. They are better technology wise and have a bit of extra displacement. Although you will probably need forgies and big turbo on this as well to make 300rwhp.. its quite a big figure but would be easier with the 3S in my opinion.
Doesnt help you much does it :)
21-08-03, 06:59 PM
Any non Toyota 4 cylinder option (eg 13B, 2JZ, SR20) will land you in the open/sports sedan/race class (depending on the sprint series you choose to compete in eg Grp5 series you'd be in the racing car class and specials Class I).
I suggest you familiarise yourself with the classes and then pick an option. Try the PIARC website (www.piarc.com.au) and follow some of the links.
If you stick with a Toyota turbo 4 cylinder then you will need to remember there is a capacity multiplier of 1.7. That said the 0-1600 and 1600-2000 cc modified classes are pretty competitive.
If you are interested in Improved Production, check www.ipravic.com.au . Their website has recently been updated but a schedule os the CAMS regs for 2002 is still up on the old site.
If you want to see some sprints, there are some this weekend at Winton and next weekend at Sandown. I should be there, car permitting!
Thanks for the advice everyone.
Gianttomato, I have been looking into this for the last couple of months ... the links that you posted are certainly good advice for anyone looking to do something similar in Melbourne to me. I am looking to join up with PIARC as soon as my vehicle is ready to go.
I was wanting to check that if I did go down the path of a 13BT or 2JZ that I would at least be able to enter it into some sort of category... even if they will all blow my doors away.. at this stage, I am not really concerned about competing... more just going as fast as I can, on a reasonable budget... Once I haave some more time to dedicate to it, I would then consider modifying the vehicle back to either a IPRA or Sports Sedan regulations... but that won't be for a couple of years, with a new house happening & kids on the plans!
Secoh, I like your advice of trying out all the bits on the 3T-GTEU first & see how that goes... if it doesn't work out, then look into the 3S-GTE or something else.
So thanks for that!
The next step is then trying to work out what I do exactly with my 3T-GTEU to start with... Looking at some specs on the 4T-GTEU (group B rally race version of the 3T-GTEU) they took it out to 2090cc with a 89mm bore & 84mm stroke. Hmmm, I wonder if anyone has tried "converting" a 3T-GTEU into a 4T-GTEU?
I would have to look at the block to see how many mm oversize I can go.. std bore size is 85mm so going to 89mm is an extra 4mm which I reckon I would need a pretty "meaty" block to bore out that much.
Looks like I have got some investigating to do...
Can anyone give me some good recommendations on Cam timing, turbo, valve sizes,forged pistons for the 3T-GTEU & some estimations on how much my wallet will be hurting? :-)
you might want to do a trawl through the forced induction forum here, theres a LOT of good info! General concensus is to not bother too much with valve and port work on a forced motor, and to use a cam that preferably gives more lift than stock, without much more overlap. sorry for the vagueness but I'm investigating this myself at the moment! :D
look for a turbo off something roughly 1/4 again the capacity of what you have, and a ball bearing core, but a non ceramic wheel. the nissan BB stuff is pretty common and seems to be best bang for buck performance and reliability-wise.
a CT26 from a 3SGTE is possibly the next best option, it'll also let you play with some different compressor/turbine combos from the supra, L series diesel, celica GT4 and MR2 (all used the CT26 in one flavour or another).
but they are a friction bearing core and are all getting pretty old now.
there's no way i'd want to bore a block more than 1mm unless you knopw for a fact it can take it! its rare to find a motor you can safely bore more than 1mm, and those that you do often have overheating problems due to the lack of material to disperse the heat.
Another interesting one ....
Currently I am running the 3T-GTEU on a LPG GasResearch setup, & is tuned (ignition timing / curves) have been setup to run on LPG only.
It does seem to work quite well, especially seeing that the GasResearch Throttle body is quite large. Comparing it to a couple of mate's 3T-GTEUs it also seems to go a bit harder (as I always seem to leave them behind).. but that may also be another factor.
My question was, has anyone ever played around with a Performance LPG setup, either GasResearch or LPG injection?
I was thinking about a raw LPG injection (not converted) & using the cooling effect to allow me to run higher boost... if it was somehow possible to meter it accurately enough??
From what I have heard LPG is actually quite high octane (120??) which also makes me wonder if I could run some other "special mixes" like pure propane or some other stuff that may be available (it will also come in handy if I want to have a BBQ too!)
If anyone has ever experimented with anything like this, I would be most curious to know what works & what doesn't?
If you haven't been to Matti's Toyota page it may be worth a read, this is quite an old page but Matti has some interesting info and has a modified 3T-GTE
There is a turbocharged 18R-G up here (Queensland) which is making enough power in a Corolla to go 10.1 @ 132mph, at a guess it would be making hp easily above your goal. If you are interested I can put you in touch with the engine builder, he has been around turbocharged "old school" engines for well over a decade and is one of the pioneers of the 4 cylinder drag scene, he may have some thoughts on the 3T.
Also I know that a lot of the puerto rican drag cars use the venerable 3T (3T-C?), usually with huge amounts of boost/nitrous. These are some of the quickest 4 cylinder doorslammers in the world.
I know drag and circuit have different requirements but a mild version of a drag engine may be suitable.
I dont know a whole lot about LPG, but I did a fair bit of research on what Liquiphase was trying to do which is exactly that, inject the LPG as a liquid so the change of state cooled the intake charge dramatically.
but they have a few problems., the injectors frieze solid from outside condensation, you need a special fuel pump and modified tank, amongst some other issues. apparently it worked blisteringly well when it worked, but there is a lot of hurdles to get over. if you can do it successfully you may well be a rich man. :)
head over to www.toymods.org.au there a few with modded 3tgteu and 22's with 3sgtes in them they will give you ALL the answers you could ever want and then some
So given that I go down the path of trying to get 300 rwhp / 450 fw hp out of the 3T-GTEU, & wanting to build a reliable & usable power band for track racing, can anyone reccommend good:
- Pistons (given std bore is 85 mm what is the best size to go for?)
- Compression Ratio
- Other head mods (valves, porting, springs, etc...)
- O-ring / copper gaskets (who do I go to in Melb & how much?)
- Conrods (is it worthwhile going for a stroker kit) (will std rods hold on the that sort of power???)
I am after someone who has perhaps already experimented with the 3T-GTEU & could steer me away from making any mistakes.
Secoh, can you give me any good links or information about the Liquiphase setup that I could read up on??
I reckon with the density of intake charge that you could achieve, it would almost be like running a constant nitrous setup.
I was also looking at the Puerto Rican boys's website...
Has anyone come across any technical details as to what components they are using... eg, turbos, pistons, rods, block & head mods, etc??? As they don't really give many details as to what is "under the bonnet" on their site.
all of the liquiphase sites are down it seems. a google search will bring up some fringe information. I had an article in The Automotive Engineer circa '93 but I dont have it anymore :( sorry...
Thanks for looking into it for me anyway.... It looks you came across the same things that I found.
I wonder if they are still in business, or if they are now too busy to maintain a website???
AFAIK they start up for a year or 2, try to drum up research funding, get enough to go for another year then vanish again....
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