View Full Version : European Grand Prix
KwiKJiM
29-05-05, 01:39 PM
Well Webbers qualified 3rd again, but how about heidfield! Pole posi on his home track. I must admit I didn't think the williams would back up quite this well after Monaco. Lets hope Webber gets a good start and williams have ironed out some of the tyre wear issues on faster tracks.
Schumi has had another dissapointing start. 10th place. BAR are struggling after their absence. Should be interesting.
Can't wait for tonight!
James
WTF Heidfeld pole? Thats unpossible!
Up until now the only time he's been ahead of webber is because of luck cannot friggen believe it!
Interesting during the interview with Webber on RPM that Webber wouldn't elaborate on fuel strategies, but the implication seemed to be that Heidfeld is on a lighter initial fuel load. Webber said he was "very happy" with his lap.... I'd be guessing he's got around 2 laps more fuel onboard.
Tripper
29-05-05, 03:31 PM
whats the site with live timing, it aint shown till 1am here
www.formula1.com
You need to register now though.
I'ts awesome about williams, i can't wait for tonight and i'ts only been a week's rest, should be a good one....
2 laps nafe? If he was happy compared to heidfeld I would have said he has a few more than 2 laps extra... But as you said we will see
Good luck to mark I wanna see a Number 1 finish :)
Good to see the williams seem to have sorted out their dramas with the rear grip too :D
I can't remember how many kilos = how much extra time per lap.
I'm hoping it's more than 2 laps worth of fuel though :D
SpeedyDerek
29-05-05, 04:58 PM
webber looks like he's in a good position for tonights race, but unfortunately the one glaring thing from my point of view is that he's alongside that toyota of trulli. Too many times this year has he been following that panasonic rear wing after a bad start.
I think raikonnen will try and take heidfeld in the first few laps, which will make for good racing, then ultimately pass him once heidfeld takes his first pitstop. Montoya won't figure, and neither will the toyotas at race pace, unless trulli gets ahead of webber at the start.
Webber a great chance at another podium, and hopefully go one or two better from monaco, i can't see him winning unless Kimi has a failure.
BAR look disappointing, but we'll have to see them in the next race at full strength again with a new engine, as the imola engine has been sitting around for weeks without being used, something these engines werent designed to do and some parts may have degraded. Expect to see one or two BAR honda engines smoking up.
Barichello may challenge Alonso back in the places a bit due to the tyre mismatch coming up to temperature at different times.
My Pick for the points paying positions.
Raikonnen
Webber
Heidfeld
Alonso
Trulli
M. Schumacher
Montoya
Barichello
If both minardi's finish they'll finish ahead of both jordans.
Where's M. Schumacher on the grid?
SpeedyDerek
29-05-05, 05:13 PM
Where's M. Schumacher on the grid?
10th
Rest of grid here
http://www.f1racing.net/en/raceresults.php?racepartID=709
I can't remember how many kilos = how much extra time per lap.
I'm hoping it's more than 2 laps worth of fuel though :D
I think 1kg = round 0.2/0.3 of a second
I wish that the qualifying was back to low fuel and the fastest car.... oh well worked out for Williams this time..
I think that is probably more like 10kg... I'm not sure carrying 4kgs would slow you by a second a lap :D
this race looks interesting, you can't count out the ferraris, they are heavy, and once the tyres are warm they will be quicker than most of the top runners out there, as seen in prevous weeks, so i say schumi is ten, but he will finish top 5,
Williams have benefited from the fee weeks of testing they have done, to bad they didn't do there full program this weekend in testing...
Bar will blow an engine, also they development they have done to the engines over the past 5 weeks are not on these old engines, so everyone even BAR are waiting for one to blow....
and i think if kimi finishes, he will be 1st. theyve looked to strong over the past few weeks to doubt
Shitbreak
29-05-05, 06:32 PM
Also interesting on RPM how Webber said that his starting problems will not be fixed any time quick.
Anyone wanna take guesses on how many positions he'll lose this time :rolleyes:
he is on the clean side of the track, but last couple of weeks he has been loosing 3 spots... so 1 row
I think that is probably more like 10kg... I'm not sure carrying 4kgs would slow you by a second a lap :D
haha yeah probably more like 10kg....... i just remember the commentators talking about it at monaco..... :rolleyes:
Williams did over 60 back to back practice race starts at testing last monday. It's not like they're not trying.
I can't see Kimi not winning this again, but expect to see a Williams of some description on the podium.
Oh and updatef1.com have live timing without registration.
AndyMac
29-05-05, 08:29 PM
My guess.
Webber will follow Heidfeld through the first corner and block out Kimmi.
Mark on a 2 stoper compared to a 3 stopper for Nick.
M Schumacher to win the race by about 3 light years
Kimmi 2nd &
Webber 3rd with Heidfeld 5th
Alonso 4th.
Trulli 6th
Webber to drive his best race of the season....
there ya go......100 to 1 odds of all that happening...but it is F1.
Stix Zadinia
29-05-05, 08:48 PM
my predictions:
Heidfeld will be out within the first half of the race (after a run in with someone), Schumacher will pull a good lead (but spend the first half of the race trying to break a few other drivers) and be light years ahead (as mentioned before) i'm guessing 4th or 5th for Webber. but i hope he does better.
sato changed his engine so he'll be at the back,
Sato will probably blow the new engine too anyway :D
Interesting fact - BMW make the clutch, but Williams make the clutch actuator. Talk about a team effort to fix the starts..... I wonder what those de-briefs are like after shitful GP starts. Hopefully they will have improved it so that Webber can make an equal start to Trulli and hold that bullshit Toyota behind him so he can have a proper race :D
Well well well, a little better off the line but only till the first corner.....Montoya did turn a little sharp maybe should have stayed out wider,
but i guess it is more of a "racing incident".....i guess mark was desperate to keep his position after the last few starts and didn't want to let Montoya through.
Well... It happend again.
Poor bloody Mark, he can't seem to catch a break.
If I was him, I'd be feeling completely fed-up by now...
trent from punchy
29-05-05, 11:34 PM
im not watching it anymore :(
finished on live timing.... damn what a race will watch it now, looked like a interesting race
Spoiler below higlight it to see it
mark webbers crash out means next week in canada he wil get a shit qualifying run position as he didn't finish
Billzilla
29-05-05, 11:41 PM
Well you can quote me - again! - on that single tyre rule being one of the fucking stupidest things in racing I've ever seen.
Sorry to see Raikkonen go out like that.
Bloody hell. Stupid stupid stupid Montoya, turning in .... grrrrr. If i was out there i would not be a happy chappy
AndyMac
30-05-05, 01:40 AM
Webber actually said he thought he was more to blame then Montoya Takai. Watching replays, I think the accident was a 50/50 to each driver.
As a Webber fan, I wish he didn't of break so late!
2 Weeks Canada.
Yeah, im 30mins behind, and posted about 2min after the incidentw as played over here.
Ouch for Raikkonen though.
KwiKJiM
30-05-05, 03:30 AM
Well paint me green and call me gumby!
I thought that was a great race. Damn shame about Mark, although I do feel he is mostly to blame...but due to my bias, I'm going to blame Montoya. Damn you Juan Pablo!
Kimi tried his hardest to fuck that Mac up. It did look as tho there may have been a braking problem tho, although I might be a little too easy on Kimi. I thought Alonso was going to make it past on the last lap but it turns out he didn't need to. Well done to him tho, he kept giving it stick the entire race distance.
I also think Coulthards race was awesome. From 12th to 4th is a good effort, especially in a car lacking the development dollars of the big boys. I find it amazing in a sport as professional and expensive as formula 1, mistakes like not putting the speed limiter on in pit straight still happen.
Top racing again!
James
Ive watched that JPM/Webber footage several times over now, and the one thing i keep thinking is that JPM cuts over extremely aggressively for the equivalent of Webber being in line with his "B-pillar". From everything I can see it seems a very arrogant move from being on the outside. Everything which i guess we have come to know from JPM
Ben Wilson
30-05-05, 07:56 AM
If you watch the overhead, Webber really should have been turning and locked up the fronts just before the impact. He was definately well off line. That being said, JPM should have given him space, but, probably didn't even see him coming in from that angle..
Yeah, but JPM starts turning in well before where Webber would have had to. Even for braking (or should i say baking) so keep into the braking zone, the Williams would have been able to pull that corner. We saw it last week at Monaco, so why not now. JPM is quite wide on the turn, and darted across almost pre-apex.
sejanus
30-05-05, 09:21 AM
I think that although webber admitted fault he may well change his mind after he sees replays of it. He will probably keep quiet over it though as it is no use stirring the pot.
Good on Mark for accepting the responsibility. I haven't checked the replay again, but I wondered if he locked it up trying to stop when he saw Juan turning in? It's a shame as I think he would have blasted Nick's 3-stopper into the weeds and been on that 2nd place instead :(
Tuff luck for Kimi too. I didn't see the incident though, once Mark was out, my interest waned and my flu took over... meh, I'll watch the tape today sometime though.
webber couldnt last one damn corner, why didnt he keep line intead on the inside of going from one side of the track to the other?
AndyMac
30-05-05, 09:25 AM
Its called "taking the best possible line to the corner" - But, there was another car on this line, or close too it as well
sejanus
30-05-05, 09:30 AM
fuck daewoo you are a moron
webber couldnt last one damn corner, why didnt he keep line intead on the inside of going from one side of the track to the other?
Daewoos are too good a car for the likes of you.
Please end yourself now, you'll be better off in the long run, and so will your poor daewoo. :rolleyes:
I would have liked to see Kimi win again last night to tighten up the championship, but Bill I still think the single tyre rule is awesome :D
Webber - what can I say that hasn't already been said :(
Uhh, how about an easy one :P Button is DAMN lucky to have finished.
crx2gen
30-05-05, 01:01 PM
^ Hell yes. I've got to say I found the slo-mo replay on the ITV coverage of Raikkonen's tire blowout quite impressive! Anyone know of a good site/torrent to download highlights from the race? It was a shame to see him go out like that - would have much preferred to see if he could hold off Alonso in the final couple of laps.
I blame Williams traction control/ launch control for Mark's accident- if he wasn't (correctly) worried about the Toyota getting past the slowest launching cars on the grid he wouldn't have run in a smidgeon deeper than he should have. Even if he was 0.1 of a second further ahead he would have been ok- this has everything to do with the shocking launches the Williams does, and not very much to do with MW. From the way MW and Williams are talking, it sounds like they went too small on the clutch for all the advantages, and the launches are not good.
They have said there is no simple fix, which to me means you can't fit the necessary clutch/ actuator inside the current bellhousing/ transmission.
I gave up and went to bed too...
BTW Coulthard admitted fault for letting the pit speed limiter off early- didn't forget, just got a bit excited..
The good news for MW is that they were actually competitive with the mclaren- maybe not enough to beat them, but certainly enough to keep them honest. Another 2 3 for Williams would have been pretty easy I reckon if the cars left the line properly.
Oh and daewoo, thanks for your enlightening comments. We appreciate a F1 insider of your caliber visiting our forum to shine light on the inside story of Formula 1. Best of luck in the future and warmest regards.
Muz
Yes, Heidfeld's fastest lap was very competitive although a bit early in the race. I'd like to see his lap chart and see how badly the laptimes faded. However all drivers on 3 stop strategy last night were quite competitive.
On the start Webber was just too defensive. But that's still his fault. I can't stick up for him this time.
Where did you read about the clutch diameter muz? Other chatter is that the BMW just has no grunt down low.
Didn't read it, just sort of got that feeling from the way they ttalked about it being a huge job to fix. If it was just ecu settings they would be able to sort it quickly, same if different pressures etc, but the only thing I can think of that would require redesigning would be clutch size- ie it doesn't handle the launch loads- remember MW said the car wouldn't bnarely get off the line for the parade lap at monaco- they changed the launch parameters to try and fix it and failed again..
Maybe I have lost my mind...
Muz
:D
and they subsequently drop the launch revs to take the stress off the clutch - sounds plausible.
Or maybe allow more wheelspin to take the load off as well- slipping the clutch to soften the launch must generate a lot of heat. In the car I would reckon that he can change the target slip %, and the rpm the engine is held at. Therefore reduce the rpm and increase the slip % if it felt a bit soggy off the line for the parade lap..
Muz
Either way, it's a compromise.
Well you can quote me - again! - on that single tyre rule being one of the fucking stupidest things in racing I've ever seen.
OK i'll quote you :)
I completely agree, it is one of the most stupid things they could have done to the sport...not only does it not decrease costs for the teams (how much more development would they have to do to get the car to be easy enough on the tyres??) but its a question of driver safety as well.
Sometimes i wonder if they draw these rule changes out of a hat...
Cookiemonster
30-05-05, 03:31 PM
fuck daewoo you are a moron
I can't believe people are so easily baited.
sejanus
30-05-05, 03:35 PM
with the bmw engine, last year I saw jpm say that the engine has nothing down low, it's all or nothing up top.
cookiemonster - it's not about being baited, it's because he's a twat.
Cookiemonster
30-05-05, 03:40 PM
cookiemonster - it's not about being baited, it's because he's a twat.
.. to get an intended reaction. Ignore him and he'll get bored.
I completely agree, it is one of the most stupid things they could have done to the sport...not only does it not decrease costs for the teams (how much more development would they have to do to get the car to be easy enough on the tyres??) but its a question of driver safety as well.
Lol, a car that is easy on tyres is faster and easier to drive, regardless of whether you have one set of tyres to last the distance or five sets. Teams are always spending more on development to get the cars to be easier on tyres enabling them to use softer, grippier compounds. Even 260DET is spending money to make his car nicer to tyres!
How is a driver that locks his brakes less dangerous than a hard tyre?
Anyway, the teams have done less development during this season as they self-limit their track testing to save costs.
webber couldnt last one damn corner, why didnt he keep line intead on the inside of going from one side of the track to the other?
That is a very good point Daewoo. I wish I was more like you. Are you on this forum for our entertainment or your own?
BMW make the clutch, but Williams make the actuator.
I'd be interested to know if this year's clutch is any smaller than last year's,.... I don't recall last year's Williams being that slow off the mark (no pun intended).
I reckon Webber would have made mincemeat of Nick's 3 stopper. Considering the amount of fuel he had, he should have been more than .287s up on Webber's time.
Bring on the North American races....
I'm still betting on Webber being on top come year end, and to beat Nick to the first victory too.
Sorry to see Raikkonen go out like that.
:sad:
An exciting race, probobly for all the wrong reasons
Alonso extremly cocky with the 4 finger wave, especially for someone who won via luck, and clearly also doesnt have the quickest car in the field....
JabberWocky
30-05-05, 06:14 PM
I think it was pretty gutsy to keep the car out there (Kimi) but if they had have brought him in it would probably have gone bang even with a new tyre as the suspension absolutely shat itself (one minor con in comparison with metal). Was cool to watch though indeed and boy did those tethers do there job, remember Jaques a few years ago when his tyre flew over a fence and into the crowd? Although, if it did break afterwards, it primed Kimis head well for a pounding by keeping it with the car like that. See him duck when it happened ?? Probably browned them after that one. And do believe if the car lasted a lap he would have won it as he was 1.5s ahead on the final lap and Alonso was 4s behind with 4 to go. Would have been a great battle. Came from nowhere but he really gave that Maclaren a hiding. Poor Webber. I hope thtis will be the last time we say til next time..
Nick took forever to get moving even though he had very little fuel. In fact Webber was marginally quicker off the mark but got swamped by Trulli (again). I expect BMW will never fix the start dramas this year.
aus9000T16
30-05-05, 08:37 PM
An exciting race, probobly for all the wrong reasons
Alonso extremly cocky with the 4 finger wave, especially for someone who won via luck, and clearly also doesnt have the quickest car in the field....
As with all races this year it was great. There hasn't really been one clear winner until the flag has fallen in any race this year. At least the right car has won to put the right driver in front :p
Seriously though, luck or not, Alonso has the points, he been at the sharp end of more races and is on top.
As with all races this year it was great. There hasn't really been one clear winner until the flag has fallen in any race this year. At least the right car has won to put the right driver in front :p
Seriously though, luck or not, Alonso has the points, he been at the sharp end of more races and is on top.
Anyone'd think you own a Renault or something ;) :lol:
aus9000T16
30-05-05, 09:38 PM
Anyone'd think you own a Renault or something ;) :lol:
There may-be one in the stable somewhere.
I've been away all weekend, is it worth me staying up to some stupid hour tomorrow night to watch the mid-week ITV replay?
Best of Luck with the Flight Zac!! catch you in a few days!
Nah, just tape it and watch the start a hundred times !
The replay they showed on Aussie news last night was from a helicopter over the top of the grandstand on the left of the track. Made it look like MW just drove straight into a stupid place. The direct overhead view they showed mostly during the race looked completely different to me- like Montoya really dragged his car across unnaturally.
Goes to show that what looks clear on the replay might not be so clear..
You would have to think that they will get the starts sorted sooner or later. There was a comment on atlas forums that I thought was pretty clever,
Williams has no excuse to be so poor at such a major component of winning races and an F1 championship. How can a team expect to win a championship when they go into a race on the pole with light fuel and expect to lose that hard won advantage before the first corner.
Sam Michael fails to leave me feeling very positive about his tenure.
When you think about it, it is a strange strategy- the way to fix a slow starting problem is to run the cars heavy, and save fuel and tyres while following the pack (ferrari does this the best), then go mad when the others stop for fuel. I know they use complex computer simulations, but maybe Sam Michael is nervous and/or too conventional in his approach?
One way or the other, you couldn't have asked for a more varied season- no form to speak of, inconsistent performances suggesting that the setup is much more of a gamble than under the old regs. They will figure it out, but in the meantime it is making for some crazy scenes!
Muz
i wonder how they would possibly go qualifying in say tenth with a one stopper when everyone else is on two then?
Barichello's strategy would have worked well because once he gets his tyres up to serious race pace. Nick was pretty well helped out by Mark's incident :)
No doubt BMW wanted a pole at Nurburgring on Saturday knowing that Merc was favourite to win on Sunday.
Nah, just tape it and watch the start a hundred times !
The replay they showed on Aussie news last night was from a helicopter over the top of the grandstand on the left of the track. Made it look like MW just drove straight into a stupid place. The direct overhead view they showed mostly during the race looked completely different to me- like Montoya really dragged his car across unnaturally.
Goes to show that what looks clear on the replay might not be so clear..
I think Webber only snags that right front as he sees Montoya turning in. I am pretty sure he wasn't locked up prior to this, thinking Monotya was using his mirrors...... shame he didn't.
Mark did pretty much take all the blame on himself though sure he sort of said Montoya didn't see him but he also added it wasn't Montoya's job to be watching out for him there
Very unfortunate for Webber the starts in F1 are so important everyone wants to make up spots but its a bit different when you're just trying to hold onto the one you should be in
4x4FishGuy
31-05-05, 11:32 AM
Hahahaha see my previous thread.
And for Bill, im a supporter of the single tyre rule as well, seems to make things a little more exciting in the last 10 laps. Im sure the Webber fans love it, he would still be waiting for his first podium if the rule was any different.
Cheers
Brad
Nah, just tape it and watch the start a hundred times !
When you think about it, it is a strange strategy- the way to fix a slow starting problem is to run the cars heavy, and save fuel and tyres while following the pack (ferrari does this the best), then go mad when the others stop for fuel. I know they use complex computer simulations, but maybe Sam Michael is nervous and/or too conventional in his approach?
Heidfelds light qualifying was a PR stunt to get a BMW on pole. That's why for the first time this year Webber was on a heavier slower strategy, but of course it all hinged on still being able to beat Trulli to turn 1 which brought everything undone :(
AndyMac
31-05-05, 01:53 PM
I don't think that beating Trulli into the first corner should of been the major issue at the Ring. They should of just consolidated that start the best they could of and gone offensive ona light load when everyone was coming back out on the 3 stoppers.
What was Trulli on ???
The-Kid
31-05-05, 02:31 PM
I don't think that beating Trulli into the first corner should of been the major issue at the Ring. They should of just consolidated that start the best they could of and gone offensive ona light load when everyone was coming back out on the 3 stoppers.
What was Trulli on ???
MW said it was important for their race strategy for him to be infront of montoya at the start...
But Trulli was putting it on his right side, then the rest is obvious.
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