BMW V12 engines - any good?

[Norbie]

So I've been wanting to put a V12 in my Supra for ages, and Century engines are few and far between and cost quite a bit of coin. Plus there are two of them going into Supras as we speak, so it's old news now.

Then this (http://www.tradingpost.com.au/ad/adnumber_W977211423733_cat_Engines+%26+Transmissio ns_off_10_sect_Automotive_sort_otRZSQ1BJDZfdRZSQSe archDisplayPriorityInd_sqt_2_srch_bmw_state_9_stpg _1_subs_Wheels%2c+Tyres%2c+Parts+%26+Accessories_) shows up. BMW 750iL 5.0L V12 engine for $3300. Sounds interesting in theory, but are they actually any good? For all I know this could be the 7M of the BMW world, so I won't be buying one any time soon - but it's an interesting concept all the same.

A Supra with a V12 in it is automatically extremely cool*, even if it makes half the power of the 2JZ. Extra points for 12 trumpets poking out of the bonnet! :D

* Anything made by Jaguar being the obvious exception.

[2JZR31]

DO EEEEET!!!11

Imagine it with tuned extractors and ITBs, would sound awesome! What is the power torque and redline of this engine?

How much does 1GZ go for?

[Emre]

Your craziness is admirable if you go through with it.

I have no other input. :)

[jesus]

thats the dumbest shit ive ever heard!

ps you are my god

[2JZR31]

BTW it won't make half the power of a 2JZ if you slap GT45 on it ;)

[AlexinPerth]

I think the initial purchase will be the cheapest single thing you buy related to this engine.

Go for it.

Alex.

[Billzilla]

I've heard the SOHC ones aren't very good. Can't remember why though sorry.
But they're still better than a 7MGTE. ;)

[2JZR31]

SOHC pffft....

[DCR]

Never heard anything adverse about them. Motor is known as M70B50. Motor wieghs 155kg. I know they like fuel, but show me a V12 that doesnt. Good thing about them is they dont run VANOS so easier to tune with aftermarket ECU's etc. Best matched to a Getrag 226 6spd gearbox from the 850csi's. (unfortunately there is only 6 of them in Australia :()

225kw @5500rpm. 459Nm @3900rpm. Bore/Stroke in MM = 84x75

With some time and patience, they can look like this.

http://www.dcr62.net/Car%20Pics/V12M70B50.jpg

......and yes, thats in an E30.

Cheers
Dave

[2JZR31]

FUCK ME. How much power does that make?

[DCR]

640hp/803Nm apparently. I think it could do better.

[tomic]

I bet it does uber-skidz.

[Norbie]

Never heard anything adverse about them. Motor is known as M70B50. Motor wieghs 155kg. I know they like fuel, but show me a V12 that doesnt. Good thing about them is they dont run VANOS so easier to tune with aftermarket ECU's etc.
Thanks for the info, sounds pretty good so far. 155kg would make it significantly lighter than a 2JZ, are you sure about that figure?

Best matched to a Getrag 226 6spd gearbox from the 850csi's.
Would that be anything like the Supra 6-speed (Getrag of some description) I have in my garage right now?

Oh and I might add that Project Waste-Lots-Of-Money-On-A-Celica is well underway, so any V12 projects won't be happening for a while yet; I was just curious. :)

[Madhatr]

Electrics can be an issue as they basically made the engine from 2 x 6 cylinder motors. That means they have double the number of sensors, controllers and wiring, it can be a nightmare if you have problems with wiring.

Manual gearboxes are pretty much nonexistant, they basically only came on csi models and if you can find one here, will bring a huge premium.

Engine weights are dry minus most accessories.

[Madhatr]

Would that be anything like the Supra 6-speed (Getrag of some description) I have in my garage right now?



If it was the belhousing probably wouldnt be the same anyway. $3300 is an ok price, ive seen V12 7 series sell at auctions for a little less, so its not a spectacular price.

[Shonky]

As Madhatr says it's basically two 6s joined together. Two of everything - even two ECUs.

[gianttomato]

Actually 3 ECUs - one to run each bank and one to run coordinate(?) the other two.

Looked into this about a year or two ago with Ed. Very exxy to do any work to them. It didn't seem that all the bits (bearings, rings etc) could be bought non genuine. Reboring seemed like an ordeal too.

There was one in an adjacent suburb to mine for $750 (no ECUs) and a bit of fire damage (not that I'd care - was all going to be scrapped for ITBs).

Looked the goods - maybe sandwich plate and V160? The sump is the right configuration for an MA61.....:yup:

A link. http://www.lambolounge.com/Chassis/Engine/BMW-V12/BMW.asp

[DCR]

I bet it does uber-skidz.
There is a guy in the UK who is putting one in a home made 'Ultima Style' up.

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/andycanam/GTTpage1.html


Actually 3 ECUs - one to run each bank and one to run coordinate(?) the other two.

Just run a decent aftermarket ecu and it would be done with.

[Jim]

It would need to be in something that shows the motor of in every way, such as a hot rod. Saw a Jag V12 in a T Bucket in the UK and it looked amazing.

[Norbie]

Thanks for the info GT. To be honest if I went down this path I'd be wanting to leave it alone internally - add ITB's, decent exhaust and of course aftermarket management and you should be making reasonable power. Not to mention the sound 12 throttles would make. :yup:

Having said that, 12 throttles + 2 custom headers + Motec M800 = pretty goddamn expensive for something which probably won't make any more than 400hp.

[DCR]

Having said that, 12 throttles + 2 custom headers + Motec M800 = pretty goddamn expensive for something which probably won't make any more than 400hp.
But it would be very unique. Sometimes things have to be done just for the sake of doing it.

[Nathan Tinkler]

Woftam. Fast/dollar = 2JZ. Anything else seems silly to me, especially in a Toyota..

[Madhatr]

Im getting a little sick of the number of times i see 2JZ mentioned in the past couple of weeks, if people want to be that simple minded, fuck off to a toyota forum, there are plenty of them.

[2JZR31]

Im getting a little sick of the number of times i see 2JZ mentioned in the past couple of weeks, if people want to be that simple minded, fuck off to a toyota forum, there are plenty of them.

Do I have to change my tag to keep you happy? :p

[charged]

Allan Engineering at Mallala in S.A put a BMW 5L with twin turbos off a r32 gtr in a hotrod, put out over 600hp on their engine dyno @ 6psi.

[DCR]

Im getting a little sick of the number of times i see 2JZ mentioned in the past couple of weeks,
Huh? Should I stop posting BMW related matters because of the same reason? Perhaps people post about a particular engine because they have some history with that engine and can advise on it.

if people want to be that simple minded, fuck off to a toyota forum, there are plenty of them.
That's a bit harsh don't you think?

[MartyXF]

Im getting a little sick of the number of times i see 2JZ mentioned in the past couple of weeks, if people want to be that simple minded, fuck off to a toyota forum, there are plenty of them.

:gay: :gay: :gay: :gay:

[Nathan Tinkler]

Nah I do understand where he is coming from. But I am new to the world of these big toyota engines and I can't believ how good and cheap they are.

If Norbie was talking about an engine that you could get for bugger all, and set up cheaply, for good results, THEN I would be enthusiastic.

But to talk about dropping in an awesomely expensive, unrebuildable, electronics fest that you can't get a manual gearbox for, I have to wonder why?

The toyota thing IS boring, but fast on a budget is my idea of fun. Each to his own.

[2JZR31]

Norbie has been there done that with the 2JZ and knows exactly how hard they go. Looks like he wants to go for some cool factor now. I reckon its sweet but its not something I would do. I say go for it.

[gianttomato]

Not sure you actually need an M800 to be honest. The ITBs would be exxy enough to set up. Could consider some 20V ITBs to maybe cut costs - might be a bit small. I think black top ones are 43mm - someone could verify this?

Chat to Ed - pretty sure some lads Stateside were claiming 450+ NA - I'll see if I can find the link. Also he has some details re non ge3nuine pistons for upping compression.

Whilst on the topic of things V12 generally, look at ebay. Occasionally there are some ridiculous bargains - like the Aston Martin V12 that was there for sub $10G. There was a Merc V12 there too but well over 15K. Way out of my league but if you're looking to play with 12 cylinders....


It would need to be in something that shows the motor of in every way..... That's what Crown coupes were made for.:rotflol:

[Madhatr]

Do I have to change my tag to keep you happy? :p

No, thats cool, im just sick of threads where people are talking about doing something totally different and someone comes in and says 2JZ. Like muz's post above me, thats why i said it. If he wanted cheap and easy, i dont think he's going to be talking about V12 conversions. He even said it didnt matter if it made half the power of a 2JZ.


Huh? Should I stop posting BMW related matters because of the same reason? Perhaps people post about a particular engine because they have some history with that engine and can advise on it.

That's a bit harsh don't you think?

No where is the problem with talking about bmw's in a thread talking about bmw bits or just in general banter, but if someone kept coming into your threads (and every other bmw thread) and telling you to put an LS1 in your M3 because its cheap and easy, thats annoying.

No, it isnt harsh, if everytime a conversion thread is even mentioned and the solution is a 2JZ (just do a search and see how often it keeps being repeated), might as well go to one of the many toyota forums instead. I mean, it might be a good engine an all, but come on, its verging on the point where the solution to every car posted is to put a 2JZ in it. And thats a bit :gay:


:gay: :gay: :gay: :gay:

Bite me precious http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/madhatter_/hay-1.gif

[Norbie]

Actually I can see Madhatr's point, especially in the context of this thread. The car in question has already been the recipient of a 2JZ conversion. It's running great and has been for 3 years, and in terms of bang for your buck it's pretty hard to beat. Does a V12 conversion make sense when I already have the potential to make eleventy billion hp with bolt-ons from eBay? No, but since when does it need to make sense? If I thought like that I wouldn't be throwing several grand at an 18R-G right now. :p

Not sure you actually need an M800 to be honest.
Well maybe not an M800 specifically, but I was under the impression you'd need something pretty high-end to drive 12 cylinders?

The ITBs would be exxy enough to set up. Could consider some 20V ITBs to maybe cut costs - might be a bit small. I think black top ones are 43mm - someone could verify this?
Yes ITB's might be going a bit too far. For all I know the stock inlet setup is good enough - and to be honest it's probably better throwing a couple of cheap turbos on it instead of going nuts with an atmo build-up.

Chat to Ed - pretty sure some lads Stateside were claiming 450+ NA - I'll see if I can find the link. Also he has some details re non ge3nuine pistons for upping compression.
Ed owns a MkIV now so he can't be seen fraternising with a MkII owner any more.

450hp sounds pretty impressive though, even if it is US horsepower.

I wonder how much boost an unopened engine could handle? I can't help thinking that a pair of RB25 turbos running modest boost would turn an engine like this into an absolute torque monster!

[JZK25]

I saw two BMW V12's at BMI when I was there last. Had autos, pipes and even ecu's IIRC. Can't be worth much as they wouldn't have bought them otherwise, can't imagine the market for Bimmer V12's being too hot. If interested talk to Dave there, he is the resident realist.

[DCR]

I saw two BMW V12's at BMI when I was there last. Had autos, pipes and even ecu's IIRC. Can't be worth much as they wouldn't have bought them otherwise, can't imagine the market for Bimmer V12's being too hot. If interested talk to Dave there, he is the resident realist.
Whats BMI?

[2JZR31]

Brisbane Motor Imports.

[gianttomato]

Well maybe not an M800 specifically, but I was under the impression you'd need something pretty high-end to drive 12 cylinders?
Two ignition channels (with appropriate inputs) to run the two dizzies and 4 injector drivers (fire batches of 3 injectors) will do it. No VANOS with the early V12s so no need for variable cam control. I would have thought there's a bit of stuff about that does that.

I reckon put it in the Celica and sell the 18RG chaff cutter motor to some kid who likes torture. They're shorter than a JZ and a steering box friendly 60 degree vee......

[Madhatr]

The stock manifold isnt that bad, it utilises a pair of throttle bodies to feed each side of the motor as it is. The one dave posted has been modified so they look quite a bit different standard.

[Billzilla]

Could consider some 20V ITBs to maybe cut costs - might be a bit small. I think black top ones are 43mm - someone could verify this?

Silvertop's are 43mm, blacktop's are 45mm.

[Madhatr]

Might be cheaper to use bike throttles, there are a couple of bikes that have some pretty basic designs which do work.

[thechuckster]

in the early days of Megasquirt, there was a few folks talking about converting a v12 bimmer to megasquirt, using a single ECU and driving two pairs of 6-cyl EDIS units to run the spark.

It looked easier than re-wiring the engine (several tonnes of wiring that had been slightly burnt). As noted earlier, the engien management treats it as two linked 6cyl engines.

I'll try to fund some URLs.

[Madhatr]

Yeah, in the end he realised it wouldnt run like that though, had to have seperate units. He ran it with 2 MS units on the v12 and only had it running out of the car as it was just to see if it would work. He only used one TPS and had seperate fuel pumps for each bank. Basically treated the engine like it was 2 seperate 6 cylinders and installed and tested one full bank at a time. The M70 already came with limp home mode which dropped the V12 back to 6 cylinders when a fault was detected, so the engine will actually run fine (although at reduced capacity) with just 6 cylinders firing.

Jay's ultima runs twin SDS with a MSD ignition which is quite a bit more expensive than the megasquirt install.

http://www.ultimav12.ca/electrical/slides/DSCN5890.jpg

http://www.ultimav12.ca/electrical/slides/DSCN5886.jpg

[thechuckster]

yeah ... a quick search of msefi.com found the story petering out...

edit: found the pics