View Full Version : Fresh Bore - Dry or Oiled?
Ned Loh
10-08-11, 12:01 PM
Hi,
Have a block freshly bored to suit the pistons and rings (chrome faced).
my trusted man says install them into the bore dry to seat best. Piston/ring supplier says lube with a LITTLE engine oil. Have also heard of using ATF or two stroke oil.
any advice?
Cheers.
nastypaul
10-08-11, 12:08 PM
assembly lube?
Always assemble them well oiled up.
carcrazy
10-08-11, 12:28 PM
always assemble them well oiled up.
+1
A bloke who used to work here had this huge argument with me about assembling motors with WD40 "because thats how race motors are built"
I told him he's full of shit and and idiot but he did a mates corrola motor anyway and guess what? They couldnt even turn the fucker over.
Dry mate. Motors assembled dry will bed in way faster and with less stuffing around(break in driving) then an oiled bore and will form a better seal.
By the time you prime the engine to get oil pressure up your rings will be half way there and after about 1 second of running on first start up the bore and rings will be sloshing in oil. Ive done it heaps of times with no problems and with the best leak down and compression results ive seen. If you have oil on there you are just putting a barrier between the ring and wall and it will take longer for the ring to 'bed' in as it needs more pressure to expand out to push through the oil.
Just like break in driving once assembled, dont baby the car. You need cylinder pressure to get the rings to bed in.
greenhj
10-08-11, 01:26 PM
only thing id do is LIGHTLY oil the piston skirts, then bung it in.
soaking rings or bore in anything is bad mojo.
WD40 on the bores and rings is fine. Torco assembley lube on all the bearings, pins ect and moly grease on the bolts.
BigJonWB
10-08-11, 10:42 PM
I have always oil lubed and never had any issues bedding the rings in.
Billzilla
10-08-11, 10:51 PM
Light oiling for mine. The oil is gone by the second combustion stroke and it helps protect the bores a little until the oil pressure gets up and everything starts getting lubricated.
blownhemi
10-08-11, 11:22 PM
I have always oil lubed and never had any issues bedding the rings in.
This.
I take my piston, ring and rod assembly and dip it into an open container of oil to coat the piston fully and then slide that fucker into the bore. I use a big oil tray under my engine stand. Done plenty like this and never had a problem.
I also preprime my oil pumps before start up with a drill.
This.
I take my piston, ring and rod assembly and dip it into an open container of oil to coat the piston fully and then slide that fucker into the bore. I use a big oil tray under my engine stand. Done plenty like this and never had a problem.
I also preprime my oil pumps before start up with a drill.
Mate I cringe when I read that. But then again it seems alot of people cringe when they hear assemble with a dry bore and rings.
We all should know by now theres more then one way to skin a cat.
blownhemi
11-08-11, 08:03 AM
Mate I cringe when I read that. But then again it seems alot of people cringe when they hear assemble with a dry bore and rings.
We all should know by now theres more then one way to skin a cat.
That's funny, I was thinking the same thing about assembling an engine with dry bores. :oh:
there will be some oil in the cross hatching in the bore...but always follow the ring manufacturers advice...they are the one making the product and supplying what warranty may be.
I've always done them with a good lather of engine oil.
Whatever you do, DON'T use Assy Lube or Moly Grease - It's too thick and slippery and you'll never seal the rings! Same goes for Synthetic oil - use it AFTER the first few thousand km (for a street car...)
blownhemi
11-08-11, 10:08 AM
I've always done them with a good lather of engine oil.
Whatever you do, DON'T use Assy Lube or Moly Grease - It's too thick and slippery and you'll never seal the rings! Same goes for Synthetic oil - use it AFTER the first few thousand km (for a street car...)
Yep, I think this was the core problem for the first LS1 engines. Holden was using synthetic from the start and the bores weren't sealing which lead to high oil consumption in those early engines.
Synthetics are for later on once the engine is bedded in... if you want to go that way. Personally I stick with one oil, start to finish.
Ned Loh
11-08-11, 01:22 PM
there will be some oil in the cross hatching in the bore...but always follow the ring manufacturers advice...they are the one making the product and supplying what warranty may be.
Do you think they may give you instructions that would result in the least warranty claims rather than the optimum ring seal?
Ned Loh
11-08-11, 01:25 PM
WD40 on the bores and rings is fine. Torco assembley lube on all the bearings, pins ect and moly grease on the bolts.
FWIW (& not much at that) - I ran out of clevite bearing guard and bought some Torco. The Torco was similar red in colour but reasonably thinner. I don't think it is an issue but the clevite was better as it doesn't run while I am d!cking around putting bits together.
Ned Loh
11-08-11, 01:27 PM
only thing id do is LIGHTLY oil the piston skirts, then bung it in.
soaking rings or bore in anything is bad mojo.
Cheers. this is what I ended up doing. My thinking was more to do with preventing scuffing as I dropped the piston in. Once it is all square and installed with rings etc I don't think that would be an issue.
Ned Loh
11-08-11, 01:29 PM
Dry mate. Motors assembled dry will bed in way faster and with less stuffing around(break in driving) then an oiled bore and will form a better seal.
By the time you prime the engine to get oil pressure up your rings will be half way there and after about 1 second of running on first start up the bore and rings will be sloshing in oil. Ive done it heaps of times with no problems and with the best leak down and compression results ive seen. If you have oil on there you are just putting a barrier between the ring and wall and it will take longer for the ring to 'bed' in as it needs more pressure to expand out to push through the oil.
Just like break in driving once assembled, dont baby the car. You need cylinder pressure to get the rings to bed in.
That is EXACTLY what my trusted man said. Thought I'd ask anyway. As you said in another post...more than one way to skin a cat...but looking for the best way.
Ned Loh
11-08-11, 01:29 PM
+1
...They couldnt even turn the fucker over.
mate, something else was seriously wrong with that motor.
Whatever works for you. I don't care enough to argue on the internet.
But I was a profesional engine reconditioner for over a decade and our practice was to use a cheap mineral oil for all assembly and the rings and skirts got a healthy squirt of oil from an oil can, a good moving around on the rings before assembly.
Funnily enough I never saw any bedding in problems with either cast iron or chrome moly rings, never had a smokey motor and never had a motor come back with aly kind of issues whatsoever. Most customers were long term customers and we would see the same cars in for service work reguarly.
Bedding in rings is not like it used to be in the old red and grey motor days of cast iron rings in shit grey cast blocks where you could tell a noticable difference in the running in period.
There may be differences in nikasil bores such as many alloy block engines use these days and for these you will need to follow the ring and piston manufacturer's recommendation. Even so, I never had a problem with any of these that I built, though I didn't do nearly as many as EA/XF falcons and coronas and other common shit from the mid 70's to mid 90's.
mate, something else was seriously wrong with that motor.
Yah - WD40 isn't going to magically weld the Rings to the bores - did he check ring gaps? There probably were none... Or he re-used the old pistons and left the carbon deposits in the ring grooves... Not that I'd know anything about that :knock:
BigJonWB
11-08-11, 03:54 PM
Do you think they may give you instructions that would result in the least warranty claims rather than the optimum ring seal?
The flip side of that statement being that dry installing will cause failures (no failure = no warranty claim).
XEFalconUte
11-08-11, 04:40 PM
Dry Bores!! WTF!!
After bore and hone, I wipe down the bores with ATF (has detergent in it) with fresh paper towels, I keep wiping down the bores using fresh paper towels and and more ATF until the paper towel comes out of the bore clean. Then I lube everything (pistons, bores, rings ect) with MINERAL oil with no fiction modifiers. Perite running in oil is the current favourite.
Have fun
Simon
mx_paul
11-08-11, 05:34 PM
Light oiling for mine. The oil is gone by the second combustion stroke and it helps protect the bores a little until the oil pressure gets up and everything starts getting lubricated.
Good advice , think about it why run something with close tolerances dry ? you have a much greater chance of galling , if that happens everything goes to shit . Not having a go but WD40 is rubbish I sooner yours something like crc 2-26 but not for cylinder bores . Best idea is to wind over with no spark till oil pressure is up then connect spark and start. I don't care enough to argue on the interweb either.
The flip side of that statement being that dry installing will cause failures (no failure = no warranty claim).
Its funny because my ring manufacturer actually recommends dry installing and is heavily against oiling for the reasons mentioned earlier on.
Each way works. Its just your own preference I guess. I was taught this way by a race engine builder and its stuck with me, before that I was doing it the same way as most others; light oil on everything.
Do you think they may give you instructions that would result in the least warranty claims rather than the optimum ring seal?
ha! no I don't
The initial five seconds of engine running have fuck all to do with bedding in of rings.. Dry or wd40 is surely pushing the limits of metal on metal contact.. Would you suggest running the cam dry or soaked in wd40?What about bearings?
I would think that a lightish mineral oil is very good insurance against shit getting scratched/ galled and fucked.
The initial five seconds of engine running have fuck all to do with bedding in of rings.. Dry or wd40 is surely pushing the limits of metal on metal contact.. Would you suggest running the cam dry or soaked in wd40?What about bearings?
I would think that a lightish mineral oil is very good insurance against shit getting scratched/ galled and fucked.
I would think most use the supplied cam lube for the camshaft if new or oil/assembly lube and oil or assembly lube for mains, big ends and wrist pin/pin bore.
They are all different parts with different loads on them and must be treated/assembled in a manner best fitting for them. But everyone has a different idea on alot of these things, all which work otherwise people wouldnt be doing it, clearly some more common then others. So, like we've said, there is more then one way to skin a cat when it comes to engines and assembly.
FWIW (& not much at that) - I ran out of clevite bearing guard and bought some Torco. The Torco was similar red in colour but reasonably thinner. I don't think it is an issue but the clevite was better as it doesn't run while I am d!cking around putting bits together.
There is a second type of Torco assembley lube for cams, piston pins ect, it appears to be the same thing but a lot thicker and comes in a tube rather than a bottle.
Prior to torco have used Morey's / Lucas oil stabiliser everywhere except the bores.
Bosshoggett
12-08-11, 12:05 AM
Once the oil drops from the cylinder head onto the crankshaft oil is flung in all directions.
I've always oiled the ring pack and gudgeon pin.
If an engine uses a single drop of oil per piston every time it fires it would run dry in minutes. The lube requirements for the rings and bore are pretty minimal.
A drop of oil on the rings and lands and a dry oiled bore is enough for a new start up, doesn't matter how much is on the skirt because the bores below the oil ring will be in an oil storm.
Once the oil drops from the cylinder head onto the crankshaft oil is flung in all directions.
I've always oiled the ring pack and gudgeon pin.
Not just that, but the oil spray from around the mains and big ends as its constantly thrown 360 degrees is enormous. Then add your return oil from head getting caught up in the vacuum trail and you have what momus termed before; an oil storm.
Greg Rust
12-08-11, 10:59 AM
When I was doing my LPG installers ticket the manual that was provided talked about wiping some house cream cleaner agent (that white fine paste shit like Gumpton) onto the ring pack, wind over the short motor 30 times and then remove all pistons and wipe them down.
I remember thinking that sounds like far too much work, so I just squirt a little oil on the rings, crank it over with no plugs till pressure is up, and then start it up and find the biggest hilll and give it some load.
Supercrown
12-08-11, 11:18 AM
Dry apart from something to stop the bores corroding at Lonsdale engine plant (Mitsi 2.6, 3.0, 3.5) and a light oil on the rings – again – only to stop the rings getting surface corrosion whilst in storage prior to install.
I've used wd40 for years and never had a single issue. I swear by it. I'd _probably_ go for light oil and use it very sparingly at that, if the motor wasn't going to be fired up for a long time post assembly.
I'd also add that most running in oils were mono-grades because the amount of blowby/heat getting past unbedded rings was enough to fuck up vi improvers and friction modifiers (going back some years of course) and was why mono grade oil was the 'go' esp for running in air cooled motors.
SO basically even if you didn't oil the bores much or at all, after a few moments of running blowby past each piston/ringpack pressurises the sump and pushes splashed oil up and past the rings on the pistons not on a compression/combustion phase, so they'll get oiled quick smart anyway.
oil on the cam is a different thing - it's to act as a coolant as well as a lubricant, and the lobes sort of 'work harden' in the run in process. the forces/loads are somewhat different to the conditions the rings/pistons/bore walls experience, if that makes sense?
Most importantly - make sure the run in procedure is done to specifically attain good ring bed in as early on as possible, i.e. in the first hour of operation, immediately after the cam has been run in properly. Surely there's some archived posts on that very topic in here somewhere?
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