where to get a manifold made up?

[fourwheeldemon]

hi huys im looking for someone or somewhere who makes manifolds cheap in queensland because im turboing my ke70 corrolla which has a worked little 4k engine in it! any help would be great!!! the cheapest i found is 600 but im only 16 and thats to much fo now!!!
from pat

[Potsy]

If youre on a budget just use the STD exhaust manifold and get a "J" pipe made up.
Weld a Adaptor flange to the end of your "J " pipe.
Done!
Ask JMAC or do a search for some of his posts, im sure he has done this on an early corolla of some description.

[fourwheeldemon]

yer thats a good idea but do i weld the j-pipe on or just bolt it on and use a gasket? using the j-pipe will it work well?

[Robbo]

Bolt+gasket is the best idea. Welding to factory cast iron manifolds becomes a bit of a hassle.

The j-pipe won’t be extremely efficient but I’m pretty sure you'll find it does everything you need it too.

I think you’d be a little optimistic to expect it to "work well" though..

Remember get what you pay for (most of the time anyway) why would people pay $750 for a custom manifold when a $75 J-pipe could do the job? Its because they don’t work all that well. Seems obvious to me.

Glad to see you giving it a go though.. Better to be turboed with the J-pipe than not at all.

[jmac]

Robbo is on the money. Weld a flange to the j pipe and bolt it on.

The j pipe I used actually funneled a factory twin outlet through to 1 pipe and then to the turbo. The diameter of pipe used was too large as well, meaning that the flange at the other end to bolt the turbo to was less than ideal (to say the least) but it still worked.

That 'less than ideal' manifold was used because that is all that we had at the time, and we were going for the absolutely most tightarsed project ever built.

If I was starting again, learning from the mistakes made with that setup (everything imaginable was done 'wrong' yet it still worked very well, considering it was a very high mileage tired 3k, no i/c and breathing hot underbonnet air with 'smog' head and in the relatively heavy ke30, a ke20 would have at least dropped half a second from it) I'd do the following:

use a 4K (not a 3k) from the last corollas to use a 4k - the ones with 'hicam' badges. to the best of my knowledge they ran dished pistons. They'd be the cheapest option to getting dished pistons (boost ready more or less) by a mile. If I'm not mistaken, you already have such a motor, but it'd possibly pay to double check (or even get a spare, without a head on it, from the wreckers).

Find an early 3K bigport head. These have bigger (arguably better flowing) ports. The dished piston 4ks(afaik), and all 5Ks had a small chamber head (aside from the more restrictive ports) so fitting an earlier 3k bigport head (with larger chamber) gets you a very suitable compression ratio - around 8:1 - with a std head gasket, no copper thick gaskets etc. They are very very easy to identify - where the 4k (etc) heads have a heater hose takeoff at the back of the head, with 4 screws holding the plate with the hose takeoff to the head, the 'good' heads have a welsch plug in the same place. It means you'd have to alter heater hose routing slightly, but big f'n deal. I'd also source a bunch of stuffed heads (probably available for free) . pop the collets and remove the retainers so you can take off the valve springs. Under all of the ones I've seen, there are thin metal shims under the valve springs. It's likely they are used to prevent the bottom of the spring chewing the spring 'pocket' in the head which is relatively soft alloy. On the turbo corolla we collected and ran 3 shims under each spring. This increases preload - for two reasons. First, the stock springs have likely lost a little bit tension over time. Secondly, even with the std cam, the turbo extends the powerband much higher into the rpm range (in this case, best perf was achieved with gearshifts at 7000rpm) so they'll be dealing with far more rpm than originally intended.

Use the exhaust manifold from the later 3/4ks. It's basically a single outlet exhaust manifold with 3 bolts attaching it. Weld a flange to your J pipe, and smear some maniseal on the std flange gasket (that normally seals it to the rest of the exhaust system) and bolt it up. It's the one with the egr valve on it. You might consider plugging this hole. It'd technically be illegal EPA wise, but so would turbocharging it without it being approved, so it's your call. This manifold will have small enough passages to keep velocity up (and hence turbo spoolup). Generally speaking, the benefits of an equal length pipe custom manifold are blown out of proportion. Yes it will make a difference, but it's ridiculous to even worry about it unless you were aiming at absolute spare no expense performance, in other words, if it's at all street oriented, save your money, the difference in performance for dollars spent is on the low end of the scale, and that money would be better spent (hypothetically) on an intercooler, which will allow a lot more boost, and far more perfomance per $$ . The amount of modified factory exhausts on 10 second cars is sizeable (particularly in the US) so it's important to put it in perspective.

About the only change (which isn't necessarily an issue here anyway since it'd likely be running a stock cam) that goes hand in hand with a 'stock' type exhaust is that it'll like a little wider lobe separation on the cam (turbo engines in general make more power with wider lobe seps, but a tuned length exhaust doesn't need it to be quite as wide. This of course only applies to aftermarket cam grinds, with higher than stock durations. If it's a stock cam, don't lose sleep - they actually work very well, especially since they are free.) Further on the cam front, don't fall into the temptation of running a non turbo performance cam thinking it will make more power, thinking you will happily put up with a rough idle etc (i.e. the normal characteristics of a high performance NA motor spec cam) - you'll actually end up making more power (or at least the same power, with a much wider powerband) with a _much_ milder cam, with much wider lobe separation. Given a choice, I'd personally run one of the stock factory cams. I can't recall off hand if and what variations in cam profiles were run over the course of the engines factory installations (which is still ongoing afaik, for forklifts, and possibly some other cars not sold here. Not sure abt liteaces) but at a pinch, grab whatever is available for nix, or retain the std one.

Back to the exhaust, Make the J pipe itself from as thick a material as is practical, to help extend it's life as long as possible. Make the flanges as thick as practical (I'd suggest 6mm, though I have used thinner) as they'll resist warpage and clamp down better. Choose the jpipe with an inner diameter that's similar (no bigger) than the exhaust manifold single outlet, and of a similar cross section area as the turbo exhaust housing inlet. that way it keeps exhaust velocity high as possible. unlike 'normal' engines where extractors need to be sized for as little restriction, free flow etc, you are never going to have low pressure in the exhaust, under boost at least, so their 'effect' would be practically nil anyway. The turbo will always restrict flow (it has to or it'd never spool up, though I am oversimplifying it). What's more important (and even if it made identical HP on a dyno, the difference in performance in the real world would be markedly different) is to keep the exhaust velocity as high as possible, so 'tight' piping is the way to go. A lot of drag cars with high boost and huge exhaust housings do make more power, but if you watch them, many of them will sit at the startline, creeping into the staging lights and be held in gear with the brake on, with high throttle input to spool up the turbo for a number of seconds before launch. they run very quick on the dragstrip, but out on the street, where there isn't the same time to spool up before lights turn green (or for overtaking or something wehre you need power yesterday) the 'tighter' exhaust housing will have a huge advantage. It happens with turbo exhaust housing/turbine sizing, and properly sized exhaust piping to the turbo is the same principle at work.


If in doubt, lean toward the smaller size, tapering it from the exhaust manifold outlet into the pipe in a smooth fashion. Also (if needed) grind the flange that hooks j pipe to turbo to smooth the transition from j pipe to turbo housing inlet, which is typically square shaped.

It will work, and quite well. To help support it (though I admit this was not done on the corolla done by myself and a couple of friends) you can always run a steel bar from a bolt or nut on the manifold face of the head to the turbo basically to brace it and help prevent warping or cracking of the j pipe etc.

I have to be honest, I think the fact that people pay big bucks for custom manifolds (esp for streeters) is some sort of 'emperors new clothes' deal where they have to keep up with the jones's and the fact that the returns *(compared to the same money spent elsewhere) are modest, they don't want to own up to the fact that maybe it wasn't the best option, all things considered. To be absolutely clear, I am not suggesting they are without merit, I just question the gains per $ spent. As a really dumb example, the old garret turbo kits for holden 6s. They were a drawthrough, and the exhaust manifold that came with them is without doubt the biggest piece of shit ever created. Yet there's people who have run in the low-mid 9s with that exhaust in early toranas (admittedly with the rest of the combination well developed. The 'as sold' versions of these kits had numerous issues, and was probably responsible for countless numbers of people thinking that drawthroughs are completely useless) I'm not arguing that such manifolds are better, just putting it into a more relevant perspective - summing up the fact that they aren''t necessarily a massive handicap.

Another thing I'd do differently is the location of the turbo. Due to having a free intercooler, big boost was envisioned, and so turbo location was chosen with that criteria in mind (aside from other space considerations). I.e. the turbo was placed to most easily plumb it all . Unfortunately the i/c was too badly damaged to salvage. SO the plumbing no longer needed to go the front of the rad and back. Now the intake charge had to go more directly to the carb bonnet.; Frankly, this made it look like shit, and there was worry of creating a strange vortex. it coldn't be routed 'direct' as the mounting location of the turbo was too close, so it had to go around the side then loop back. Had the j pipe (and the dump pipe from after the turbo) not alredy been fabricated, we would have repositioned it to make a straight shot into the carb bonnet.

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What do you have in mind for fuel metering - carb, efi, lpg? Are you leaning toward blowthrough or drawthrough. Although one is arguably superior, the result on a lot of streeters (those running perhaps 10psi or less. On that note, I have run much higher on the street, it's not to suggest the mechanical limitations of street reliability, but rather that it's possible that 10psi would make enough power to satisfy a number of people) comparing drawthrough and blowthrough would be negligible. you wouldn't 'need' an ic for 10psi, so the theoretical disadvantage of a drawthrough prohibiting the i/c use is not a huge one. I'd further suggest that under 10psi in most cases (but not all) you'd actually end up making stuff all extra power. I/Cs are great, but only in that they allow a much cooler charge, after it's heated massivile from being compressed heavily. Such low boost levels as 7-10psi don't raise the temps nearly as much in the first place. To that end, I've often suggested that the best option to choose (draw through or blow through) should be the one that for whatever reason you'll have the least trouble actually completing. There's differences in turbo positioning, an welding, and general plumbing and parts requirements for both, fuel pump and regulator choice for exmaple, so if you had a given fuel pump, and or carb or something, and that ends up making either setup easier or cheaper, go for it.

If you do run a carb in a blowthrough orientation, I strongly suggest a holley. They won't provide sensation economy (mostly because unlike a 32/36 weber both barrels open at the same time, so you can't tackle it with a lean primary and rich secondary combination) but they will provide excellent power, and remarkably easy sorting. Done right they'll also have much better throttle response. I'd suggest a 350 holley for sure. Don't lose sleep if some people 'know' that that carb is too big, it's not, and there's no other way to put it. If there is any doubt, check the archives of the 'oldcorollas' list on yahoogroups. There's some info there way back a few years ago. more recently, a lister from North America (forgive me for forgetting if it was Canada or the USA, I'm about 90% he was canadian) queried similar stuff for a turbo circuit racer project. He ended up getting a 'souped up' holley via holley themselves (I think it was a Keith Dorton signature series?) Long story short he posted to the list not too long back commenting on how shocked he was at the throttle response (etc) it had - in other words it performed better than most would have predicted for a 'more apporpriately sized carb' let alone one that size!

I've still got the inlet and exhaust off the corolla. I wouldn't recommend the exhaust (as is) as the above mentioned stuff would be far better. The inlet itself is a modded factory one. Originally we tried a carter bbd, but it was impossible to seal, so was abandoned and we went with the holley. To fit the carter in the first place, some alum rod was sourced, a matching thread (to the inlet holes) cut in it then it was scewed into the theaded holes and cut n filed flat. it was then redrilled and tapped for studs to mach the carter base bolt pattern and the centre holes cut out to bathtub shape to match the carb base. When it didn't work, the easiest option was to run an adapter plate to fit a holley on to a carter bbd (or holden ww stromberg) manifold. Cheapest too since there were a couple lying around.

If you need a std 3 bolt exhaust manifold, and/or the inlet manifold that's been opened up and redrilled etc, with the adapterplate on top, PM me, or email me at

jmac@alphalink.com.au

John McKenzie

[fourwheeldemon]

thaks guys im goin to try the j-pipe just until i can afford the custom manifold done! its going to stay carby fed with a blow through setup so wot sort of carby and turbo should i use? if i use the jpipe wot if i use extractors and jpipe them will that work better than the stock exhuast manifold?
from pat

[Roadsailing]

firstly, dont ever say "wot" instead of what again, please!

if its a tightass project, just go suckthrough carby, much simpler.

[TurboSuzi]

If you wanna go some where in Brissie to get one made up, I know a good place. They built my turbo manifold for my sierra and are happy to make more. Go to: http://www.customoffroad.com.au/about.asp These guys will help you out.

[fourwheeldemon]

thanks man ill call them tomorrow! how much was yours? if you dont mind mind me asking!

[TurboSuzi]

Not quite sure. About $350 I think but I got it ceramic coated myself so it may have been a little less. They will probably wanna see something in person before giving it the go ahead.

[T400 Skyline]

you car try exotic exhaust,ask for michael, 07 32796355 very good job

[fourwheeldemon]

thanks guy you have helped heaps with exotic exhausts exactly how cheap where they?

[Tripharn]

I'm getting a tuned length manifold with flanges made for $500 from North Brizzie. This is not it, but I'm getting a copy of it. Even the original one cost the same amount

[THE ASH]

thaks guys im goin to try the j-pipe just until i can afford the custom manifold done! its going to stay carby fed with a blow through setup so wot sort of carby and turbo should i use? if i use the jpipe wot if i use extractors and jpipe them will that work better than the stock exhuast manifold?
from pat

Jmac suggested a 350 Holley - I've modded one fro blowthru (supercharged via SC14) Datto 1200 w' an A14 - here's a helpful link... Click me

Turbo size? Probably something cheap off a 1.8/2.0l if you have something approx 1.5l an S13 turbo perhaps? people throw them out

[Turbo 351]

thaks guys im goin to try the j-pipe just until i can afford the custom manifold done! its going to stay carby fed with a blow through setup so wot sort of carby and turbo should i use? if i use the jpipe wot if i use extractors and jpipe them will that work better than the stock exhuast manifold?
from pat

Did you take the time to read Jmac's reply?

[biscan]

im running a 36mm solex carby turbo on my 1976 honda civic

let u know how it runs when i start it up in the next few weeks