CAMS rules for a hill climb car - roll cage and fuel tank

[biteme]

It's a long time since I've posted anything about the car, but I'm all inspired to get her finished and go racing (of some sort). But I want to make sure it meets current regs before I go made.

I don't have the old website anymore but the brief synopsis for those that came in late.
1964 MGB
TT 4.0L V8
Half Cage
etc
etc

Essentially imagine and MGB with the only original parts being the panels.

I've trawled the CAMs manual top to bottom, but after some interpretation help?

1) I was planning to do some hill climbs, and it seems the CAMs regs now allow cars with engine capacities over 6 litres? Or am I missing something?

2) I'm sure I read that the fuel tank had to be seperated from the passenger compartment by an impervious barrier so no fuel could leak in? I can't see that anymore? The tank has foam in, and had one attempt at making and impervious barrier but it was a bastard.

Pics attached.

3) I need to check with the maker of the cage (years ago in another state) on what bar thicknesses were used (it's chrome moly), but for SPEED events I think the cage at face value meets the requirements for an open top car? Is the horizontal cross brace between the bottom of the main hoop ok?

I need to check the base plate sizes as I'm concerned they might be too small now. Be a mongrel if they don't though.

4) How do I get a safety certificate for the cage?

5) Should I do the panel work (tubs etc) before getting the car sand blasted or dipped?

6) How expensive is dipping vs blasting? Any opinions on what's best/cheapest.

7) For a scatter shield how expensive is that the alloy that CAMS allow you to use? Are the weight savings significant?

The car is more finished than those photos show, but not by much.

Thanks and I'm sure I'll have more questions as I progress.

Byron

[Dave75]

1. 6000cc maximum!

2. Rear bulkhead...Schedule B sec 11

3. Don't 'need' a cage for Speed Events..BUT if you have one it must be constructed to specs / safe. check an old Cr Mo cage for stress cracks!
Cage doesn't have to be certified unless you get the car Log Booked.
Mounting Plates.... 75 X 50 X 3 mm
3 X 8.8 iso bolts on main Hoop
2 X 8.8 iso bolts on Brace Bars

4. Tail shaft hoops to stop shaft hitting the ground [ or you]
--------
Dave

[biteme]

Thanks Dave.

1) Pooo. Oh well, have to find something else to do then. Is there some sort of outright class that's not capacity limited?

2) Thanks. I couldn't see it. The upper control arms extend into the cockpit past the cage so I assume a rubber boot (ala CV joint boot) around them won't suffice? Sounds like. I made one version out of aluminium. Doing it in welded steel, will seal better, but will be a mongrel as the battery sits on the lower part of the tank (see right hand side on ftank.jpg) and needs to be removeable. Making something removeable that's impervious will be nigh on impossible. Also whatever bulkhead I make needs to be removeable to all the tank to be removed from the top (so you don't have to remove the diff). I guess I could make it so the tank is removeable from the bottom of the car.

That said this portion of the bulkhead that would be removeable faces upwards. I wonder if a seperate impervious box around the fuel tank will work better?

OR perhaps simpler yet is to completely change the tank from it's current 65L form and just make a small sprint tank (20L or so) from the lower section (below battery). I could then have the fuel tank effectively underneath the car. I still need a filler tube running up somewhere to some sort of panel (between drivers compartment and boot). Would this have to be enclosed in a tube (aluminium) to ensure that a fuel spill can't run back into the filler tube and into the compartment?

That said I presume the bulkhead must isolate the tank and the filler tube from the passenger compartment?

3) The car has never moved under it's own power so there won't be any crack. The plates are all welded.
In terms of specs/safe you mean the right materials, thickness, positioning etc?

4) Are there guidelines for materials for these hoops? I know what they look like so could make them.

Thanks

Byron

1. 6000cc maximum!

2. Rear bulkhead...Schedule B sec 11

3. Don't 'need' a cage for Speed Events..BUT if you have one it must be constructed to specs / safe. check an old Cr Mo cage for stress cracks!
Cage doesn't have to be certified unless you get the car Log Booked.
Mounting Plates.... 75 X 50 X 3 mm
3 X 8.8 iso bolts on main Hoop
2 X 8.8 iso bolts on Brace Bars

4)
--------
Dave

[Mr Ed]

SDMA runs their hillclimbs with some cars over 6L here. Just have a number of classes and mod levels of their own.

[rowdytoot]

there are at least a couple of cars I know running over the 6000 cc max- mine will be one of them, JustenGT4's car is another, so stress not byron.

Marque sports, sports cars, and touring cars, are all allowed to be over 6000 cc. - for log booked categories, so there will be no drama!

once again Dave, your complete lack of knowledge is disturbing.

For Daves benefit.
To compete in a hillclimb requires compliance with Shed A and B, and the Speed Event standing regulations.

Schedule A and B make no direct reference to capacity limits, nor do the Speed event standing regulations. There is reference to the "Definition of an automobile' which seems not to exist anymore, but we'll use the classification of automobiles, which outlines the capacity classes which apparently apply to all competitions (I note that rallying isn't mentioned here). Bascially as long as you're not running an open wheel race car, an improved production race car, or a sports sedan (and one assumes the car is logbooked as such) then there is a sub category in the CAMS requirements that incorporates an over 6000 cc sub category. I note that for speed/endurance records that they have Classes up to over 8000 cc!

Schedule M doesn't apply to hillclimbs - so worry not about scatter shields

[biteme]

there are at least a couple of cars I know running over the 6000 cc max- mine will be one of them, JustenGT4's car is another, so stress not byron.

Marque sports, sports cars, and touring cars, are all allowed to be over 6000 cc. - for log booked categories, so there will be no drama!

once again Dave, your complete lack of knowledge is disturbing.

Fantastic, I guess i better read up on log booked categories. No idea what categorie the MG fits in though as it's too modified for just about everything I've seen?

Any clues?

Thanks

Byron

[Dave75]

Have a look at Schedule 'J' [cages]..sec 9, sec 10 & drawing #259-1[page 14]

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Dave

[Mr Ed]

Considering Ive seen custom open wheelers at hillclimbs, I really doubt you can be too modified to compete in at least some class....problem is you might be thrown into the crazy class and wont be competitive.

Still get to be timed and have fun though and Im guessing you wouldnt build a TT V8 MGB if you were there for anything else.

[rowdytoot]

byron- don't worry about log booked categories- they don't apply to hill climbs- only schedule A and B, so you'll be sweet- the sup reg for whereever you are running will detail the permissable modification in each of their 'classes' - you'll probably find you're in the most modified production car class- but thats sweet.

yeah have a look at the cage regs, but unless it's blatantly unsafe- it should be sweet- plenty of dudes run around in MX-5s with poxy roll bars.

[rowdytoot]

see for example the SDMA hillclimb classes.

http://www.sdmahillclimb.com/pdfs2/S...%20Classes.pdf

[Mr Ed]

SDMA regs

I assume most club events will have a similar class structure.

[Mr Ed]

Fuck you Rowds!

[Dave75]

Schedule M doesn't apply to hillclimbs - so worry not about scatter shields

Tell that to the driver at a Mallala sprint last year who nearly lost his jewels when his flywheel separated. He didn't HAVE to have a shield fitted either but would have been SAFER if he did. Same goes for t/shaft hoops! yep.. why worry!!
Was thinking RACE [sports sedans]when I put that 6000cc in ...SORRY

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Dave

[hrd]

yeah NSW speed events have a weird, confusing and poorly defined class structure. Depending on what event you go to you could end up in a couple of different classes. I had my 3J log booked Datsun put in Type SV because the local Torana drivers didn't think you could have a turbo car in Type 3 and convinced the organisers to move me...

The only issue you'll have at speed events in NSW is; if its unregistered it needs to have a CAMS approved cage and be log booked.

[rowdytoot]

but where do you stop Dave?? do you make people running motorkhanas have full cage, scatter shields, HANS, fire suits, firebombs etc? you don't cos you'd have about 5 people competing and very little reduction in risk.

ie. it's about risk management.

If bryon wants to run a scatter shield- he can, but unless he's running a super lightweight flywheel, reving to high RPM, and has fucked the install, it's pretty unlikely to fail - how many flywheels have you seen let go on at hillclimb on a production based car??

I don't run one in the gemini and the flywheel consists of a flex plate with just the smallest amount of flywheel bolted to it for the clutch plate to run on- it's done a lot of work, but I doubt it'll do anything untoward, ever.

Again -with tailshaft loops. Failures are so infrequent it's ridiculous.

when providing advice- perhaps you should check stuff, particularly as a scrutineer your advice is taken perhaps more seriously by newbies than most.

[rowdytoot]

hrd- you'd be wrong there. plenty of us have run sprints in NSW unrego'd cars with no cage and no logbook, wakefield, OP, fairbairn hillclimb etc don't require cages and logbooks.

[msmola2002]

blown ford. not 6L.

[hrd]

hrd- you'd be wrong there. plenty of us have run sprints in NSW unrego'd cars with no cage and no logbook, wakefield, OP, fairbairn hillclimb etc don't require cages and logbooks.

maybe you did a AASA (or other) trackday rather than a CAMS event? I've done timed sprints at EC where you don't need either CAMS or AASA licence! Or maybe its down to the weird, confusing and poorly defined requirements at CAMS speed events in NSW. But I've had an entry rejected from a NSW Supersprint because my Sil80 is unregistered and not CAMS logbooked. Grafton Hillclimb also required that my unregistered 1200 was log booked.

[Coffin]

Slightly OT, .. Rowds, depending on $$ want to double enter the VT in Nov?

[rowdytoot]

all under CAMS! NSW supersprint championship rounds might be different for god knows what good reason!

Perhaps Daves mates are running the grafton hillclimb

I think it might be down to organising clubs etc. All the permits are issued by the CAMS national office now, so there would be no reason for NSW to have different regs to anywhere else cos the permit issuers in NSW have/had unique ideas!

[rowdytoot]

don't be soft damo - run the coffin! but other wise, yeah why not!!!

[Coffin]

I'll get booted for noise!!

Need to renew my cams lic too

[rowdytoot]

heheheh.. true! ...

must see if I can't drop the rear section of the VT exhaust for the last run of the day!

[Mr Ed]

Just point it to the passenger side.

[biteme]

Have a look at Schedule 'J' [cages]..sec 9, sec 10 & drawing #259-1[page 14]

----
Dave

Thanks, I'll have a look.

B

[Dave75]

Actually it is not a Scrutineers 'job' to worry about engine capacity.That is part of a Tech Advisers responsibilities. Scrutineers only concern is safety.
I have a 1150ccc/520kg Mini Clubman used for Hillclimbs....no log/rollcage...put into Sports Sedans under 1300 class only because it has perspex windows & 100mm flares. Definitely can't be registered!
It is even a bit loud but approved by the Clerk of the Course at Collingrove.
hrd's 2nd paragraph says it all,really ^^^ In SA we bend [not break] the rules to enable people to have a good day on the track/hill...If the car is SAFE ...go for it...no rejections just because the wrong brand of tyre is fitted,whatever.RACE..we insist on the rules,SPEED/NON-SPEED..more freedom,keeps everyone happy to enjoy their day out, although we still insist on the 10-15 safety essentials at Scrutineeing.

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Dave

[HoonBoy]

Log books for unreg cars are required for state level and above supersprints. It sucks arse, if my car was registered I could modify the hell out of it and run it in supersprints as much as I wanted. However, because it's not, I'm restricted to IPRA or Sports Sedan class rules and increased safety equipement. Somehow a number plate and rego sticker makes it safer according to CAMS...

[biteme]

If bryon wants to run a scatter shield- he can, but unless he's running a super lightweight flywheel, reving to high RPM, and has fucked the install, it's pretty unlikely to fail - how many flywheels have you seen let go on at hillclimb on a production based car??

Again -with tailshaft loops. Failures are so infrequent it's ridiculous.

when providing advice- perhaps you should check stuff, particularly as a scrutineer your advice is taken perhaps more seriously by newbies than most.

I'll take any advice and figure the more I complie with the regs during the build phase the easier it will be later.

The car has a lightweight billet flywheel and a lot of grunt so I think a shield is a good idea, and it's not too hard to add one. Same with tailshaft loops.

My big concern is the fuel tank/impervious bulkhead. Has anyone seen a car with a removable bulgead between passenger compartment and tank. I can't enclose it completely as it stands without making some of it removable. Does the filler pipe comprise part of the fuel tank? I guess so? Even if I make a small tank the filler pipe would need to be covered and then to make the tank removable the bottom of any box around the tank would need to be open at the bottom.

The tip control rods need to be accesible so they can be unbolted and I can't do that if they need to be boxed in to make an impervious barrier. Would a rubber boot pass?

Thanks

B

[Dave75]

all under CAMS! NSW supersprint championship rounds might be different for god knows what good reason!

1.Perhaps Daves mates are running the grafton hillclimb

2.I think it might be down to organising clubs etc. All the permits are issued by the CAMS national office now, so there would be no reason for NSW to have different regs to anywhere else cos the permit issuers in NSW have/had unique ideas!

1..... can't blame me for that one,sorry.

2..... Cams issues the permit but they only approve the event regulations as submitted to them by the organising club. For example ,most classes at Mallala Circuit [race] events MUST use fuel from the Mallala track pumps..the owner /organiser,Clem Smith says so & approved by Cams.Can't remember the brand ,but if you have a fuel test done at the event & fail by using something different then tough luck...pay the penalty because it is all written in the supplementary regs as to what fuel you can use.

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Dave

[biteme]

Log books for unreg cars are required for state level and above.

How do you get a logbook? How do you work out what class you fit into? There's no way the MG will be road registerable nowadays.

I don't think I'll be competing at national level anytime soon.

B