Porsche 944 turbo road to racecar.

[333pg333]

Thanks Chris. I will look into it. At the moment it always seems one step forwards, 2 backwards and a couple sideways. Bit like a goal kicker!!

My intention was to run Prod Sports this year but things have dragged on every week. Days turn into weeks turn into months turn into years...blah blah blah...

http://www.prodsports.com.au/emedia_2009.html

One of the problems I am having is deciding what to do with the rear wing. The current one is a Chinese Ebay special and likely only increasing drag. So I've been investigating a 'proper' one but the rules in CAMS are pretty restrictive and it's a lot of dosh to splash out on a wing that is going to be an expensive compromise when running in more open type events like Time Attack and SuperSprints. Then you get onto the ProdSports website and look at pics of some of the cars from past seasons and they look like some of them are running pretty big wings...so a bit confusing. All you seem to read about in the CAMS rules are "If we don't say you can do it then don't !!!" They seem very dictatorial but perhaps the relative bodies don't apply the rules so stringently? So what do you do when you want to order an expensive wing from O.S....'wing it'?? Couldn't resist. Anyway...bridges to cross.

[Gammaboy]

I'm told they're pretty loose with their rule interpretation in NSW and Vic...
Ferinstance the issue of RACE with the IPRA Rx7 and the Prodsports TVR - both cars are blatantly not complying with the rulebook... aftermarket heads on the TVR (and questionable eligibility!), and the oil cooler in the passengers seat of the Rx7...

[333pg333]

When I was making my first inquiries re ProdSports they said that you couldn't even have hood vents! I have vents for cooling and he said you will have to cover the inside with some alu sheeting. Wtf?? I want to extract heat from the engine bay to increase longevity. It's not like it's RAM air in or anything. I suspect that they try and sound all legit etc but once you get involved they slacken off....unless you start winning from the outset. Then they'd circle you like Vultures and pick pick pick!!!

[Cal]

It depends which class of Prod Sports you are talking about. From what I can see, there is no way you are going to able to run as 2F and you'd have to run a restrictor if you did. So then we look at 2B and the car would have to run the same type of turbo it left the factory with. I'm guessing that is some kind of fairly small KKK? That's just for a start. Not sure about Vic, but NSW are cracking down hard this year on eligibility. I don't want to rain on your parade and I'd love to see the car race with us, but read the rules for 2B on the CAMS website.

[Guido]

I'm told they're pretty loose with their rule interpretation in NSW and Vic...
Ferinstance the issue of RACE with the IPRA Rx7 and the Prodsports TVR - both cars are blatantly not complying with the rulebook... aftermarket heads on the TVR (and questionable eligibility!), and the oil cooler in the passengers seat of the Rx7...

No class is more by the book than IPRA. Just check out the forums if you want to see the whinging.

That GB oil cooler is legal, air is fed from a heater hose hole in the firewall and escapes via a drain hole in the floor. It is completely contained and you're expressly allowed to cut holes for oil/fuel lines.

[Gammaboy]

No class is more by the book than IPRA. Just check out the forums if you want to see the whinging.

That GB oil cooler is legal, air is fed from a heater hose hole in the firewall and escapes via a drain hole in the floor. It is completely contained and you're expressly allowed to cut holes for oil/fuel lines.

Ok, the intake didn't look like that in the pic, however "8.2 Gearbox/transaxle: The gearbox or transaxle may be replaced by one of free design incorporating no more than five forward gears, subject to 8.1 above. It must incorporate an operable reverse gear and remain in the same general location as the original. The gearbox crossmember and mounting points are free. Any additional lubricant cooling device, including a fan is permitted. The circulating pump, radiator, and air intake may not be located in the cockpit. Drive must be taken only to those wheels as envisaged by the manufacturer."

[Beavis]

You could drive edo's Perana through the holes in that rule! You could argue that, by the way it's written you cannot have all 3: i.e., circulating pump, radiator and air intake, in the cockpit. But you can have any 2 out of 3, or any 1 out of 3... They should have said "Neither the circulating pump, nor the radiator nor the air intake may be located in the cockpit."

Likewise "envisaged by the manufacturer" is hopelessly vague. All you'd have to do is provide a schematic of an unobtanium 6WD drive factory prototype, et voila! Someone envisaged a 6WD hooptie.

[LINCOLN]

I like this - discussion's about 2B catagory are relevant to my interests....

Feel free to troll my build thread picking on things if you are bored/drunk/both

[Guido]

Ok, the intake didn't look like that in the pic, however "8.2 Gearbox/transaxle: The gearbox or transaxle may be replaced by one of free design incorporating no more than five forward gears, subject to 8.1 above. It must incorporate an operable reverse gear and remain in the same general location as the original. The gearbox crossmember and mounting points are free. Any additional lubricant cooling device, including a fan is permitted. The circulating pump, radiator, and air intake may not be located in the cockpit. Drive must be taken only to those wheels as envisaged by the manufacturer."

Interesting indeed. I truly am surprised about that, especially considering how hard Vic officials came down on Ray Hislop's car.

[Gammaboy]

I like this - discussion's about 2B catagory are relevant to my interests....

Feel free to troll my build thread picking on things if you are bored/drunk/both

I'd suspect 3J or 3D are where your beasty will wind up (its a sedan not a sports car!) - might have to undo a bunch of work and run the poxy restrictor as a 3J.

[LINCOLN]

its a sedan not a sports car!

Definition of sedan? and sports car? Is it simply four seats?
No cannot be the four seat theory.....

Cannot see much different in layout between my car and a 944.

[Cal]

Group 2B and 2F Eligible Vehicles

AC Ace, AC Aceca, AC Bristol
AC Cobra 289
Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spider, Giulia Spider
Alfa Romeo Spider 1300, 1600, 1750 and 2000
Alfa Romeo Montreal
Alfa GTV (FWD), GTV Spider (FWD)
Alfetta GTV (V6 models)
Alpine A310 and A110
Amaroo Clubman
Arrow Sports Cars (formerly Westfield
Australia) SE, SEi
Aston Martin - DB4, DB5, DB6, DBS and
DBSV8
Audi TT (all models)
Austin Healey 100/4,100/4S, l00/6 and 3000
Austin Healey Sprite (all models)
Bolwell Mk7 (186ci )
Bolwell Nagari (302, 351ci) Coupe/Convertible
Bongailis Cobra
BMW Z3, Z4, Z8, M Coupe, M Roadster, Z1
Bullet V8 (normally-aspirated only)
Caterham Superlight 500
Chevrolet Corvette (less than 6000cc)
Chrysler Crossfire
Classic Revival Kobra (Ford 302ci)
Daimler SP 250
Datsun 1500, 1600 and 2000 Sports
Datsun 240Z, 260Z, 260Z (2+2), 280Z
DeTomaso Pantera
DRB Cobra
Dodge Viper
Elva Courier - all models
Elfin Clubman (4AGE 20 valve)
Elfin MS8 Clubman
Ferrari 275GTB, 275GTS, 330GT, Dino 246
Ferrari Daytona, Dino 308 GT
Ferrari F40, 355, 360, Testarossa
Fiat Spyder 1400,1600, X1/9
Fiat 850 Spider
Ford Capri (FWD)
Fraser Clubman (Toyota 4AGE 16/20v, 3SGE)
Honda S600, S800 and S2000
Honda CRX, NSX
Jaguar XK 120, XK 140, XK 150
Jaguar XKE 3.8, 4.2 and V12
Jaguar XJS, XKR
Jensen Healey
Lamborghini Diablo SV
Lancia Fulvia 1.3 and 1.6
Lancia Beta coupe, Beta Monte Carlo, Stratos
Lotus Élan, Élan Sll, Élan + 2
Lotus Europa (inc. twin cam), Elite, 47
Lotus 7 (54 twin cam), Super 7, Esprit
Lotus Elise (not 340R, asymmetric seat only)
Lotus Exige, Élan (FWD)
Marcos - all models pre-1997
Maserati Merak
Mazda MX-5 (1.6 and 1.8), 1.8 Turbo, SP Turbo
Mazda RX-7 (all Series), RX-8
Mercedes Benz 300SL, Coupe and Roadster
Mercedes Benz 190SL, 230SL, 250SL, 280SL
Mercedes Benz 350SL, 450SL, 380SL
Mercedes Benz SLK
MGA 1500, 1600 Mk II and Twin Cam
MGB and MGB GT (inc. V8)
MG Workshops MGB V8 Roadster
MGC and MGC GT
MG Midget - all models
MGF, MGF Trophy
MGRV8
Mitsubishi FTO, GTO
Morgan Plus 4, 4/4, Plus 8
Nissan 200SX, 300ZX, 350Z (all models)
Nizpro Nissan 200SX-R
Nota Fang
Opel GT1100, GT1960
Porsche 911 (all normally-aspirated models)
Porsche 914 and 914/6, Carrera RS
Porsche 911 Turbo
Porsche 924 (inc. Turbo)
Porsche 944 (inc. Turbo)
Porsche 928 (all models)
Porsche 968, Boxster
Porsche GT2
Porsche 911 3.6 (pre-964 Conversion)
PRB/Birkin S3
PRB Clubman (Toyota 4AGE 16/20v)
Python S (Ford 302ci)
Reliant Scimitar, GTE, Spyder
RMC Cobra (Ford 302ci)
Roaring Forties RF40
Robnell 302 S/C (Ford 302ci)
Sunbeam Tiger
Sunbeam Alpine (all models pre-1997)
TD2000 (L20 engine)
Toyota MR2 (all models)
Toyota Supra RZ
Toyota Celica ZZT (2000 on)
Triumph TR2, TR3, TR3A, TR4, TR4A, TR5
Triumph TR6, Stag, TR7, TR8 (inc. TR7/V8)
Triumph Spitfire and GT6
Turner 1500 and 950S
TVR (all models pre-1997), Chimaera
Volvo P 1800, 1800 S, 1800 E

[LINCOLN]

Was trawling the Cams site for that - thanks. That pretty difinitive and shutdown.... sad that there are not many places for my car to play cheaper (3D is too much dosh and there is no chance for my car to be competitive, GrpA do not allow replicas, IPRA not enough mods)

Sorry for off-topic.

[Gammaboy]

Yep - always the problem with building a car and then deciding to race it... It might not be outright competitive in 3D, but I reckon you'd be mid field in it.

[Guido]

400FWHP is achievable on E85 with a 36mm restrictor. And massive torque given the boost pressures used.

I agree, there needs to be an Nd class or the like whereby people can build replicas of Group A & C cars to race.

[Gammaboy]

400FWHP is achievable on E85 with a 36mm restrictor. And massive torque given the boost pressures used.

Faaaaaaark. really?
I thought they were looking at a bit over 300 with the restrictor for a good one?
Might have to rethink future IPRA plans...

Apart from the gay as aids wheel/tire restrictions in IPRA and the restrictor, it's not far off the old Group A, at least for early "late models"

[Cal]

I agree, there needs to be an Nd class or the like whereby people can build replicas of Group A & C cars to race.

This is a fat idea.

[Gammaboy]

I remember a bunch of guys on some old holden website were talking about building a bunch of Group C reps and just running at the back of 3D...

[Guido]

Faaaaaaark. really?
I thought they were looking at a bit over 300 with the restrictor for a good one?
Might have to rethink future IPRA plans...

Apart from the gay as aids whel/tire restrictions in IPRA and the restrictor, it's not far off the old Group A, at least for early "late models"

Apparently unleaded fuels top out at ~360FWHP and on E85 ~400FWHP. But Steve Thomas would be the man to speak to on here.

Have also heard from a couple of people that 1.7-1.8 litre engines give the best powerband to torque compromise. So yes...an EM 105 with a 1750 would be pretty gun. As would an EM 1756 124. And being over 3 litre you can still use a 15x8" wheel, while 48Rs are shit a 225 is still alot of tyre under an early Alfa.

[Teamgemini]

Faaaaaaark. really?
I thought they were looking at a bit over 300 with the restrictor for a good one?
Might have to rethink future IPRA plans...

Apart from the gay as aids wheel/tire restrictions in IPRA and the restrictor, it's not far off the old Group A, at least for early "late models"

Might not be to relevant but I know of some PRC cars doing over 220kw at all 4 on E85 with a 34mm restrictor. Big power, i'd be happy with 160kw when my motor is done...

[Gammaboy]

Apparently unleaded fuels top out at ~360FWHP and on E85 ~400FWHP. But Steve Thomas would be the man to speak to on here.

Have also heard from a couple of people that 1.7-1.9 litre engines give the best powerband to to torque compromise. So yes...an EM 105 with a 1750 would be pretty gun. As would an EM 1756 124. And being over 3 litre you can still use a 15x8" wheel, while 48Rs are shit a 225 is still alot of tyre under an early Alfa.

They class the up to 2l turbo cars as up to 3l in terms of rubber (I think!), so 15x7 Ignore that, that's only refering to late model weight limits.

Actually, I was thinking Alfa 75 1.8t - They're Group A homologated, the bodyshells are cheap, they can easily be gotten down to 950kg or so, would be running 8" for an Evo (Just under 3l with the 1.7multiplier)/9" for a normal 1.8t as a late model...

[Guido]

Nope, 15x8" for anything over 3litre effective EM:
11.1 Wheels: Wheels are free subject to the following restrictions.
The maximum rim width is 8” for each Late Model automobile with an effective capacity up to and including 3000cc, and is 7” for each other automobile with an effective capacity up to and including 3000cc.
The maximum rim width is 9” for each Late Model automobile with an effective capacity greater than 3000cc, and 8” for each other automobile with an effective capacity greater than 3000cc. Other than for Late Model Automobiles, the maximum wheel diameter for an automobile fitted with a piston engine of 6 or more cylinders is 16”; and the maximum wheel diameter for automobiles fitted with any other type of engine is 15”. The spare wheel, jack and any associated brackets may be removed.

I wonder if you could argue the 155Q4 (IIRC) to be an elligible car. Because than you could run a real motor in all elligible Alfas... But I do like the 75 idea.

Sorry 333, we certainly have gone off topic here.

[Gammaboy]

Yeah, I re-cheecked the rules and saw i was wrong - edited too.

I wonder if you could argue the 155Q4 (IIRC) to be an elligible car. Because than you could run a fiat motor in all elligible Alfas... But I do like the 75 idea.

Sorry 333, we certainly have gone off topic here.

Fixed:P

[333pg333]

Wow, thanks for pumping up the post count on this thread guys!! hahaha
Don't worry about going OT on my threads either. Happy to read what you've all written. It's a learning curve for me.

When speaking with the guy who is building my engine yesterday he asked if there was an hp figure or goal that I want out of it on the engine dyno. The motor is in the US btw. He will do a pump gas map which I think is about 91 RON (about 96oct out here?) then he'll do an E85 map. He felt that he wanted to be conservative on their pump fuel map and said he'd aim for about 450bhp. When I said I'd like to see 600bhp on the E85 his reply was "Oh, that will be no problem". Bear in mind this guy is no Cowboy. He's in his 60's and been to the very highest level in Motorsport having worked beside Gordon Murray for Bernie Ecc at BMW back when Nelson Piquet won a few F1 titles. His feeling is that depending on how the engine reacts it could see well over 700bhp but that this would be snapping axles and other driveline components. My feeling is that I want him to push this motor pretty high on the engine dyno so we know somewhere pretty close to where the limits are. I don't want to push it to the Jap scene level of psi but for short SuperSprint type events I hope even mid to high 20's should be plenty enough.

When running the car last year without cage, better suspension, brakes, much lighter, stiffer, lower CoG , slicks, and about 290whp it was doing 1.05s at WPark and 1.45s at ECreek on R specs so I assume it will be just a tad faster when all done. If I can't run in 2b I'm not that worried. I was looking into getting a proper rear wing and it was going to be really compromised by the rules. So rather than do that I'd prefer to build the car I want and if no-one will have me then I'll just do SuperSprints, Time Attack, Sprint Bathurst, and maybe whatever class might have me. I wouldn't care even if I had to run in Sports Sedans. I don't reckon I'd be coming last.

[200MPH]

Nice work 333. Me likey.

There's a nice 944T over here in Perth that does sprint events etc and goes very well. Great how much rubber you can fit.

All this talk of great power (and hence torque) figures is nice, but how does the trans cope with this to your knowledge? Reason I ask is I have a vested interested, of course! Currently running a 347 V8 (380 RWHP) through a 944 S2 trans, which is same as 944 Turbo, but shorter diff ratio. This gets a real hard time in hillclimbs and circuit sprints. I did have a Audi 016 (earlier 944 trans) in the car until this time last year when the diff pinion cried enough. So I did the franken trans thing (as you do) and adapted the front Audi case to a 944 S2 trans and threw my Quaife torsen diff into it as the diff centres are the same. Not a simple conversion, but can be done. So far it seems to be coping OK after 6 or so events. So that's why I'm interested in any experiences you have or have direct knowledge of with regard to how tough these trans are.

Have a picture of a dead pinion gear for your viewing pleasure!

[Cal]

Please start a thread on your car. Sorry, what V8?

[333pg333]

Well there's a few different trans options. The S2 is as you say, pretty much the same as the 951 but the 951 has hardened first and second gears. Not going to help in your situation though! Having said that, there are many 948s (V8s in 944 bodies) running with 951 trannys. There are also many higher powered 951 racecars running out of the US using the 968 6 speed box. It is larger and will take larger LSDs and also you can interchange with some Audi gearsets. In my current 951 box I have a motorsport 60/80LSD and a S2 ring and pinion for shorter final drive it holds fine, but I've got a modified 968 trans being built now. Also some heavy duty axles and CVs being sorted. I still have a Factory rebuilt 996 GT2 turbo trans that I was going to use but fitting it was going to be a bit more custom and time consuming. Considering having parts of the 968 trans cryo'd and REM'd. Not sure if anyone is up to speed on either of these processes?

What car is your V8 S2 trans in?

[333pg333]

ps here's some video of a Yellow modified 944 turbo (951) racing out of Victoria. This was in last year's Phillip Island magic and from what I know he raced as a 2b Prod Sports. I know he's running a non stock everything so not sure on the rules here? Pic of the car at the beginning of the first video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQEu5..._order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JAIrVcu01g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AHGK...eature=related

[Gammaboy]

Please start a thread on your car. Sorry, what V8?

Windsor in a GT40 rep at a guess.

[th0r]

ps here's some video of a Yellow modified 944 turbo (951) racing out of Victoria. This was in last year's Phillip Island magic and from what I know he raced as a 2b Prod Sports. I know he's running a non stock everything so not sure on the rules here? Pic of the car at the beginning of the first video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQEu5..._order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JAIrVcu01g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AHGK...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnQUe...VRvyI&index=14

far out that guy is keen