A bit late joining the party? v8 supercars insert nissan

[Boxer]

That criticism can be levelled at society in general though. We've gone so PC that every sportsman has to confom to it. No more Brocky with his Marlboro ciggies in the mouth all the time (yes, I know he quit), DJ telling it like it is. The only one left is Ingall, but he's not really done anything of note for a while now, so no one listens to him anyway.

Absolutely - anyone else watched 'When Playboys ruled the world' Story of Barry Sheene and James Hunt

Very different racing world where racers spoke their mind and screw the sponsors and politically correctness

Awesome

[bigmuz]

It's got a tiny bit to do with how the sponsors back then were throwing in a few grand and now they are throwing in a few million too..

[noobd]

Saw that couple of weeks ago on vimeo. Bloody brilliant stuff.

Also, agree with the earlier posts. Bring back Group A/C racing. And definitely Group B.

[mondo2000]

I think you completely missed the point of my post but hey was compring it to if someone said the same thing today people would crack the shits be calling for his head and sponsors to pull out etc. Back then people got over it, I supported him & Skaife at the time so gave no fuck. Loved it when him and Skaife won again for HRT and he paused after saying "You're all a bunch of...... lovely lovely people".

Not at all. I'm saying that if he made the comment today, as long as the back story came out (via social media or whatever) I doubt there would be any ramifications. Pointless hypothetical anyway.

[Momus]

GT-R was a saleable, full on GT homologation special designed with the express purpose of out doing Porsche's 959 around the 'ring. The fact that, in Freddos words, his team, Gibson motorsport, 'the McLaren of the South Pacific' were allowed to race it in Group A is an indictment of the local governing body and an indication that Gibson had too much Winfield drug money.

The point about boost limits that usually escapes is that CAMS has had a 6 litre limit for most categories.

If there is to be a semblance of parity in terms of torque and power production their has to be a boost limit of about 1.3 atmosphere (2.6 absolute)f or a 2.6 litre engine to give that.
Without careful attention to parity and boost limits NA cars have no chance and the turbo blokes end up burning everything up and going broke. True story. It even happened in F1 around the same time

[Monk]

Yeah man, HQ Holdens is where it's at!

[Bo]

GT-R was a saleable, full on GT homologation special designed with the express purpose of out doing Porsche's 959 around the 'ring. The fact that, in Freddos words, his team, Gibson motorsport, 'the McLaren of the South Pacific' were allowed to race it in Group A is an indictment of the local governing body and an indication that Gibson had too much Winfield drug money.

The point about boost limits that usually escapes is that CAMS has had a 6 litre limit for most categories.

If there is to be a semblance of parity in terms of torque and power production their has to be a boost limit of about 1.3 atmosphere (2.6 absolute)f or a 2.6 litre engine to give that.
Without careful attention to parity and boost limits NA cars have no chance and the turbo blokes end up burning everything up and going broke. True story. It even happened in F1 around the same time

You do know that Group A was an FIA category i.e. global - CAMS determined that Group A was the category for the ATCC?

You're making shit up - It didn't happen in F1...

[333pg333]

1) Yes, bogun 'wits are always going to be there.
2) Yes, Group A and C + the old Sports Sedans circa Brocky in the 7L Monza racing against Jonesy in the 935....were awesome!!
3) Despite the knee-jerk anti Taxi...the racing is actually generally very good. It's undertyred and the standard of driving and coverage is excellent.
4) Cams and GM have too much control.
5) Same cars isn't the way to go.
6) Make them different and they will come.
7) Put Porsches, Fezzas, Lambos in there too. They basically do the same time around most tracks. That would put bums on seats!!!

[hrd]

GT-R was a saleable, full on GT homologation special designed with the express purpose of out doing Porsche's 959 around the 'ring. The fact that, in Freddos words, his team, Gibson motorsport, 'the McLaren of the South Pacific' were allowed to race it in Group A is an indictment of the local governing body and an indication that Gibson had too much Winfield drug money.

it was built for Group A regs from the outset mate, not GT racing.
And had a "homologation" run of over 40,000 units??? That's got to be the most stringet homologations requirement ever!
Yes, Winfield bribed the local governing body into letting them use it. It wasn't homologated internationally by the FIA or anything...
we get it, you weren't a fan. but stop speaking shit.

[Momus]

Of course the GT-R was Homologated Group A by the FIA. They happened to be a contemporary GT specification sports car by any impartial technical analysis.
The point is that turbocharged latter Group A was an unmitigated disaster for local Touring car racing. I watched rounds with 10 or 11 cars competing because everyone was broke, exhausted and technically out of their depth. It was something CAMS should have forseen. They only had the previous 20 years or so to work out what Australian's wanted to watch- and it sure wasn't whooosh pop.

The current, arguably World's Best V8 Supercar series has lasted 19 years and gone from strength to strength.
Witness CAMS knowing so little about there own backyard that after sanctioning the turbo disaster period they failed to recognise they held the golden egg laying goose and gave up their financial rights and control over it.

[St00ge]

The current, arguably World's Best V8 Supercar series has lasted 19 years and gone from strength to strength.

Not to mention it was partly sold off last year valuing the v8 series at over 300 odd million... What other 4 wheel series outside of Nascar or F1 is worth that much??


It is just in vogue to bash v8SC in this country

[Uncle Arthur]

CAMS bashing is always in vogue but usually with good reason

[hrd]

Of course the GT-R was Homologated Group A by the FIA. They happened to be a contemporary GT specification sports car by any impartial technical analysis.

except the impartial technical analysis that it met all the technical requirements for Group A touring car racing...

The R33 LM was built for GT sportscar racing:

[St00ge]

CBF'd starting a new thread, first test session at Sandown

[mondo2000]

GT-R was a saleable, full on GT homologation special designed with the express purpose of out doing Porsche's 959 around the 'ring. The fact that, in Freddos words, his team, Gibson motorsport, 'the McLaren of the South Pacific' were allowed to race it in Group A is an indictment of the local governing body and an indication that Gibson had too much Winfield drug money.

Gibson Motorsport didn't get Winfield "drug money" until 1992, the last year of GTR competition and after most of the development had been done. And whos to say that Peter Jackson and B&H didn't spend as much or more? And of course winfield spent even more "drug money" in the early years of V8 racing, Shell spent more "carbon money" again during the later years of DJR sponsorship, and JD and JB are spending more "socially acceptable drug money" today. Thats the way professional motor racing goes, every year it get more expensive.

The point about boost limits that usually escapes is that CAMS has had a 6 litre limit for most categories.

If there is to be a semblance of parity in terms of torque and power production their has to be a boost limit of about 1.3 atmosphere (2.6 absolute)f or a 2.6 litre engine to give that.
Without careful attention to parity and boost limits NA cars have no chance and the turbo blokes end up burning everything up and going broke. True story. It even happened in F1 around the same time

In 1992 the skylines had a boost limit of 1.3 bar (2.3 absolute not 2.6), compression limit of 9.5:1 and of course carried more weight. And of course the Group A Holden 5 litre was the pinnacle of V8 racing engines wasn't it? Holden found it easier to have a whinge than improve their own product.

Of course the GT-R was Homologated Group A by the FIA. They happened to be a contemporary GT specification sports car by any impartial technical analysis.
The point is that turbocharged latter Group A was an unmitigated disaster for local Touring car racing. I watched rounds with 10 or 11 cars competing because everyone was broke, exhausted and technically out of their depth. It was something CAMS should have forseen. They only had the previous 20 years or so to work out what Australian's wanted to watch- and it sure wasn't whooosh pop.

The current, arguably World's Best V8 Supercar series has lasted 19 years and gone from strength to strength.
Witness CAMS knowing so little about there own backyard that after sanctioning the turbo disaster period they failed to recognise they held the golden egg laying goose and gave up their financial rights and control over it.

The early 90s coincided with the last big recession Australia had, so all forms of motorsport were cashed strapped during that period. The small grids occurred at places like Wanneroo and Symmons Plains, where there were no local Group A teams and the privateers couldn't afford to travel, leaving only the factory teams in attendance. Things were not much different in the early years of v8s btw. A big failure of CAMS during the Group A years was not promoting division 1 and 2 cars, you never saw or heard about them except for a few minutes on TV at Bathurst. They were never used as a development class for teams or drivers.

The saddest thing about the demise of Group A was it marked the end of Holden homologation models, and distinguished the link between Holden road and race cars. V8 supercars have been a great success - for fans, drivers and teams and the promoters. But not for Holden and Ford in the long term. It's ironic that V8 supercars is at its strongest when Holden and Ford are at their weakest. Serves them right for playing in the motorsport special olympics.

[St00ge]

Test Session 2




Geez a v8 Test day ain't too popular these days..

[spiller]

all that red, blue and flat brim

[St00ge]

I think you guy underestimate a big slice of who follows v8s, it ain't all just bogans

[floody]

GT-R was a saleable, full on GT homologation special designed with the express purpose of out doing Porsche's 959 around the 'ring. The fact that, in Freddos words, his team, Gibson motorsport, 'the McLaren of the South Pacific' were allowed to race it in Group A is an indictment of the local governing body and an indication that Gibson had too much Winfield drug money.

It was a group A car. I think you'll find it could have run anywhwere but only ran here and Japan because:
-UK had ditched Gr. A for BTCC Supertouring formula in '90 and NME was busy with the ill fated GTi-R Sunny rally program. FWIW they did run the HR31 GTS-R program in '88 with Alan Grice and Win Percy in the ETCC.
-ETCC/WTCC was dead 3 years prior.
-DTM was again being run to a unique formula
-Australia and Japan were the only two countries still pushing Gr. A as the premier category, and in both countries the GT-Rs were run by directly factory supported teams.

[Momus]

Gibson Motorsport didn't get Winfield "drug money" until 1992, the last year of GTR competition and after most of the development had been done. And whos to say that Peter Jackson and B&H didn't spend as much or more? And of course winfield spent even more "drug money" in the early years of V8 racing, Shell spent more "carbon money" again during the later years of DJR sponsorship, and JD and JB are spending more "socially acceptable drug money" today. Thats the way professional motor racing goes, every year it get more expensive.



In 1992 the skylines had a boost limit of 1.3 bar (2.3 absolute not 2.6), compression limit of 9.5:1 and of course carried more weight. And of course the Group A Holden 5 litre was the pinnacle of V8 racing engines wasn't it? Holden found it easier to have a whinge than improve their own product.

Typo there; it is 2.3 Bar absolute. That gave the GT-R the equivalent of 6 litres worth of torque production from it's big, relatively efficient (compared to the asthmatic Holden V8) multivalve engine and given that there was no inlet air restrictor, the horsepower was limited by how hard they wanted to spin it. Several old mates were senior personel at Gibson's during the era and a figure of 650 hp is mentioned.
Holden built the VL Walky but really they didn't ever have an engine to base a serious homologation effort on. They indirectly acknowledged this some time later in the V8 Supercar era when the Aurora motor was introduced and it is a copy of the excellent and venerable, Ford Windsor.

The early 90s coincided with the last big recession Australia had, so all forms of motorsport were cashed strapped during that period. The small grids occurred at places like Wanneroo and Symmons Plains, where there were no local Group A teams and the privateers couldn't afford to travel, leaving only the factory teams in attendance. Things were not much different in the early years of v8s btw. A big failure of CAMS during the Group A years was not promoting division 1 and 2 cars, you never saw or heard about them except for a few minutes on TV at Bathurst. They were never used as a development class for teams or drivers.

The saddest thing about the demise of Group A was it marked the end of Holden homologation models, and distinguished the link between Holden road and race cars. V8 supercars have been a great success - for fans, drivers and teams and the promoters. But not for Holden and Ford in the long term. It's ironic that V8 supercars is at its strongest when Holden and Ford are at their weakest. Serves them right for playing in the motorsport special olympics.

.

[Momus]

I think you guy underestimate a big slice of who follows v8s, it ain't all just bogans

True, and a lot of people appreciate it without really following it.

One aspect I like is the extremely good engine outputs achieved, despite the limitations. In terms of efficiency measured by torque per litre and high horsepower at low rpm (BMEP basically) the best V8 Supercar engines have been up there with F1 and Nascar.

[Tripper]

True, and a lot of people appreciate it without really following it.

One aspect I like is the extremely good engine outputs achieved, despite the limitations. In terms of efficiency measured by torque per litre and high horsepower at low rpm (BMEP basically) the best V8 Supercar engines have been up there with F1 and Nascar.

I would rather watch a longer race than 3 sprint races, i would also like to see F1 do a similar event to the bathurst 1000

[Rona]

I actually prefer sprint races to one 300km every round as it promotes more passing/risk taking, don't like the currrent qualify for the second race bullshit though. I know the street races bring the crowds as they are generally closer to major population centres and infrastructure but they fucking shit me to tears. They are crap to actually watch the race from and generally don't promote much more then a bit of crash and bash due to the lack of space. The current tyre deal seems to promote decent racing though as you get decent dices at the end of the race when the grip is going down and some people are managing fuel etc.

[sh|tbmxrider]

So V8SC was formed by banning a Nissan in Group A days and now they are welcome back with open arms.

It will definately be Infiniti given the amount of people that have left certain euro manufacture HQ located in Australia lately

Lexia Place?

[S_E]

Could group A have lasted longer if it was restricted to 2wd?

I actually prefer sprint races to one 300km every round as it promotes more passing/risk taking, don't like the currrent qualify for the second race bullshit though. I know the street races bring the crowds as they are generally closer to major population centres and infrastructure but they fucking shit me to tears. They are crap to actually watch the race from and generally don't promote much more then a bit of crash and bash due to the lack of space. The current tyre deal seems to promote decent racing though as you get decent dices at the end of the race when the grip is going down and some people are managing fuel etc.

I also prefer sprint races, but something in the order of 50-60km would be better rather than 100, no pit stops, then we'd see some harder racing.

[St00ge]

I actually prefer sprint races to one 300km every round as it promotes more passing/risk taking, don't like the currrent qualify for the second race bullshit though. I know the street races bring the crowds as they are generally closer to major population centres and infrastructure but they fucking shit me to tears. They are crap to actually watch the race from and generally don't promote much more then a bit of crash and bash due to the lack of space. The current tyre deal seems to promote decent racing though as you get decent dices at the end of the race when the grip is going down and some people are managing fuel etc.

what do you mean?? second qualifying on the sunday is fucking awesome, 28 cars on the track and you got 20min to set you fastest lap in the mayhem..



Also just downloaded and watching the 1993 ATCC Review and fuck more action already on track than in the 92 Group A Review.. No wonder it succeeded.. And got to love a series where a privateer can enter with sponsorship from his brothel..

[timtx5]

+1 for preferring the sprint races. To me that is what touring cars should be all about.

[floody]

Could group A have lasted longer if it was restricted to 2wd?

No. It could have lasted longer if manufacturers (not manufacturer) had continued to significantly support it after 1987.
DTM (which wasn't running to full Gr. A rules anyway), JTCC and ATCC were the only categories in the world running Gr. A after '90. No ETCC, no WTCC, BTCC had gone 2 litreformula in '90, DTM was running the category down by '92 ready for the new 2.5l formula.

SO...What this all means is the GT-R only ever ran in Australia and Japan anyway*, it didn't cause the worldwide demise of the class which was underway before it was even homologated.

*notwithstanding one outing in the non-series Nurburgring enduro.

[Momus]

No. It would have lasted if confined to normally aspirated. Turbos burn or break too much.

Unrestricted turbo categories for circuit racing cars have always been extremely trying, even for the biggest manufacturers let alone anyone else.

Current circuit racing categories where turbos run require boost limits, air flow limits by restrictor and rpm limits.
Le Mans and WTCC and WRC do this.

[BeverlyHillsCop]

No. It would have lasted if confined to normally aspirated. Turbos burn or break too much.

Unrestricted turbo categories for circuit racing cars have always been extremely trying, even for the biggest manufacturers let alone anyone else.

Current circuit racing categories where turbos run require boost limits, air flow limits by restrictor and rpm limits.
Le Mans and WTCC and WRC do this.

Or BTCC where ballast is also added to try and have some parity between the N/A cars and the Turbo cars...