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Thread: 4 link info

  1. #1
    Trendsetter is awesome cheapracer's Avatar
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    4 link info

    Posted for Billzilla and his Clubman endeavours..

    Another "Bex Solution" by cheapracer, because Bex is Better!

    4 links trailing arms should not be parallel!! .... even though 99% of the mod car population thinks that it goes without saying they should be.

    Trailing arms do not roll around a center point between them, nor do they rise in a 2 dimensional plane in roll, they roll 3 dimensionally controlled by points (RC and chassis pivot) some distance away, there's 2 sides of them and they are at different points of that arc hence their longitudinal chord lengths change at different rates. This is pyhsics that can't be changed regardless that your brain is now screaming "Trailing links should be parallel!!".

    Why do links bind? Because they immediately become non-parallel (longitudinally) at the first instance of roll and the change in the link's chord lengths opposes the opposite side's trailing links that are also trying to do their thing causing bind.. specifically the top link in bump shortens faster than the opposite side's top link in droop and the axle won't twist to compensate.



    By having non-parallel links we have one side's top link chord length shorten in roll (bump) while the opposite side's top link shortens at closer to the same rate while in droop.

    The test setup;

    For a practical sample I chose the very popular Locost 4 link rear trailing link setup as per the book specifications. Although using some scrap steel, great care was taken in dimensional accuracy. Note horizontal heims were used on the dummy "axle" upper pivots to enable quick height adjustment for the test ..



    Links and jig;
    Links were 292mm in length as per book, initially 140mm vertical spread and all 4 jigged for accurate length ..



    The result;
    With the links parallel as per the book specs and common mythology that 4 links should be parallel(not to mention 99% practical application), bind was quickly established at around 6 degrees. Axle had to be mildly forced to this limit, would not fall under it's own weight after about 4 degrees and binding was felt well before limit. Note at this point all 4 links were very tight to swivel due to the binding and had not reached their travel limit ....



    With the links set non-parallel (rear pivots set 8mm closer together), bind was non-existent, the axle fell under it's own weight until travel limit of horizontal heims was reached. note that the only reason the axle stopped at this point was because the horizontal heims ran out of travel - THE AXLE WOULD HAVE TRAVELED MUCH FURTHER FREELY with vertical heims. The lower links swivelled freely and easily indicating little bind. Stupid picture should read "255mm" on the left..




    The resulting "winning" dimensions that you might use on your Locost, note the horizontal hiems have run out of travel ....



    I also tested upside down with the RC centered to a live axle (above test with RC 50mm below wheel centerline) with similar results... note in the lower picture the trailing arms have reached horizontal having traveled further and again i stress that it only stopped there because the horizontal hiems ran out of travel, not because of bind!




    I take these tests very seriously and was very careful to check and recheck before taking results.


    Should you do it even though theres thousands of Locost's running around today successfully? Well that's entirely up to you now you have the information, note that the serious binding starts near the end of suspension travel limits on a typical Locost but it is there. At maximum bump this will tend to creat oversteer due to the binding creating anti-roll besides the higher wear/stress on your heims and chassis mount stress. Of course rubber bushings masks this (but doesn't remove the binding anti-roll) but that's not good enough for me and it shouldn't be for you.

    On a Locost this should be very easy to check/modify for yourself by merely adding 2 extra holes on the rear axle brackets as shown (can weld a washer over later) or raise the front mounts the same amount. Note that at 120mm test seperation binding had seriously returned, 132mm was the sweet spot;



    As another proof of point, I currently have a mock up of another 4 link (DeDion) with 710mm long non-parallel trailing arms with vertical seperation of the pivots at 310mm front and 290mm rear - a full 20mm difference. With the trailing arms parallel I get serious bind within 100mm of travel but with the rear pivots 20mm closer I can lift either side a full 200mm freely using 1 finger and only limited by chassis interference in this case. Pictures another day, phone battery dead.

    Don't believe me? Make up your own test rig, use some wood, nails and hook screws or try this on your current 4 link, it's not that difficult to prove or understand once "you see it"!

    Some people will not be convinced because of the mindset about what 4 links should be ie; "Parallel!!" but a few of you more flexible thinking might benefit from this for your builds ;-)

  2. #2
    short fat cunt redbucket's Avatar
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    Did the government give your internets back? Haven't seen you post in a while.....

  3. #3
    Registered User Momus's Avatar
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    He's been working on this post.

    A circuit race/road car the 4 link live axle should be laterally located by a Watts with a chassis mounted rocker.
    In the normal range of roll centre heights, link lengths and link vertical separation you can achieve a bind free 150 mm or more of total travel without much difficulty using 8 rod ends.
    For test accuracy I think you need to model on a properly rigid mounting frame.

    I've built a few and they run and race succesfully. Usually with a shorter top arm for mounting convenience, and the final understeer tendency this gives.

  4. #4
    formerly shinybluesteel Roadsailing's Avatar
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    Assuming you can fit it why not use a 3 link? I'd probably only use 4 links if i was using a satchel link setup - no further lateral location required.

  5. #5
    Registered User Momus's Avatar
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    Satchell links give little ability to vary the roll centre and need to be run with compliance bushes.
    Lateral location and low friction suspension movement conflict.

    3 links work well in some cases.
    4 link gives more geometry options- assymetrical steer and weight transfer options are there.

    The 4 link is inherently more structurally stable. In my experience the 3 link arrangement tends to put a big twisting load on the diff housing because the top outer is not located. I cannot think of an OE produced beam axle that used 3 link
    Last edited by Momus; 09-06-12 at 07:08 PM.

  6. #6
    Trendsetter is awesome cheapracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momus View Post
    For test accuracy I think you need to model on a properly rigid mounting frame.
    This is an existing chassis, not a test rig ..

    As another proof of point, I currently have a mock up of another 4 link (DeDion) with 710mm long non-parallel trailing arms with vertical seperation of the pivots at 310mm front and 290mm rear - a full 20mm difference.

    10" of travel and to make it worse, the other side is at full droop, 2 fingers of totally free travel...


    Last edited by cheapracer; 09-06-12 at 07:19 PM.

  7. #7
    No hybrid, No care! <---cop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheapracer View Post


    I take these tests very seriously
    lol.

    The dirt road made that abundantly clear.

    Mao4Lyfe.
    And then..... cunts outta nowhere!
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  8. #8
    Trendsetter is awesome cheapracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momus View Post
    The 4 link is inherently more structurally stable. In my experience the 3 link arrangement tends to put a big twisting load on the diff housing because the top outer is not located.
    Yup, an opinion I share, axle hopping under braking as well as the housing tries to twist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Momus View Post

    A circuit race/road car the 4 link live axle should be laterally located by a Watts with a chassis mounted rocker.
    That's an opinion I don't share as Watts offer pro-roll due to offering lateral body movement, the Bex Link is a better alternate ..

    The Bex Link is a lateral location device for beam/live axles and is a viable alternative over the common Watt's Link and Panhard.

    The advantage over a Watts is height and packaging as well as left and right side packaging is the same, a Watts can not be requiring a high and a low link. The Watts also allows an amount of lateral body movement (pro-roll). The converging lines of the lateral links is where your roll center is (the blue 'X') and as you can see raising the outer links could easily put the RC below ground level if you desired or above your roofline.

    The 2 gears roll/mesh with each other as the links change length when the axle goes up and down (example; one gear turns clockwise the other anti) but if you try to move the axle sideways then the gears have to rotate in the same direction (example; turning left makes them want to both rotate clockwise) which they can not because they are meshed hence no lateral movement.

    The gears are quite easy to find being manual gearbox reverse idler gears and the ones shown here are from a smaller FWD gearbox.


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  9. #9
    Trendsetter is awesome cheapracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbucket View Post
    Haven't seen you post in a while.....
    Because of this ...

    Quote Originally Posted by <---cop View Post
    lol.

    The dirt road made that abundantly clear.

    Mao4Lyfe.
    It's concrete, try looking at the other pictures then come back and apologise, meanwhile I'll wait for hell to freeze over....

    What a shame this sort of shit is allowed to pollute a technical forum.
    Last edited by cheapracer; 09-06-12 at 08:41 PM.

  10. #10
    blinks ... Billzilla's Avatar
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    Been out all day watching fast cars run around, I only just got home, Cheapy.

    Bloody good info there! I'd suspected as much but my internal CAD wasn't good enough to confirm all that.
    You've started to go down the road of Arthur Mallock and his Trailing Arm Magic ideas. I think he got up to TAM 4 or 5 by the end of the front-engined cars.
    And as I've mentioned in emails (I'll get to your others some time soon .... Ish) the Bex Link has been done before and worked well. It's a good variation on the Mumford Link. and more adjustable than Watts, etc.

    Something else for you to try - Move the front pivots for the upper links around laterally a little and see what happens; I know with TAM 4/5 Mallock did that with the upper-left link.


    I really should get a suspension analysis program to let me try all this stuff!
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  11. #11
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
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    who the fuck puts a joint like that on the top of a 4link bracket...

    fuck im glad us drag racers worked out that 4 link bars should be off set 100 years ago...
    im a cunt
    and apparently i dont know shit...

  12. #12
    blinks ... Billzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10sec rx7 View Post
    who the fuck puts a joint like that on the top of a 4link bracket...

    fuck im glad us drag racers worked out that 4 link bars should be off set 100 years ago...
    Have they worked out how to make them work around corners yet?
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  13. #13
    DON'T PANIC Gammaboy's Avatar
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    All the side view swing arm analysis I've done was around trying to get a under tyred, over powered leaf sprung car to not hop under brakes and hook up on corner exit by rubber mounting the springs and adding an upper and 2 lower arms. Anyway, having the axle ends closer together puts the svsa pivot somewhere out the back, which helps loadthe back Tyres under brakes, but unloads under power. Of course, there's a bunch of stuff related to cg height and wheelbase to calc % antisquat but I've forgotten that shit now.

  14. #14
    Trendsetter is awesome cheapracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    Anyway, having the axle ends closer together puts the svsa pivot
    Sure but it's such a small adjustment that it's unlikely to have noticeable effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by 10sec rx7 View Post
    who the fuck puts a joint like that on the top of a 4link bracket...
    Besides not noticing the "mock up" part of my post now mentioned twice in this thread, what the fuck has that got to do with the context of the thread?
    Last edited by cheapracer; 09-06-12 at 08:56 PM.

  15. #15
    Trendsetter is awesome cheapracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10sec rx7 View Post

    fuck im glad us drag racers worked out that 4 link bars should be off set 100 years ago...
    Oh and ...

    Quote Originally Posted by cheapracer View Post

    I currently have a mock up of another 4 link (DeDion)
    Which makes your post irrelevant.

  16. #16
    blinks ... Billzilla's Avatar
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    Keep it on-topic thanks guys, this is good technical info.
    I'm really interested in it.
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  17. #17
    DON'T PANIC Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheapracer View Post
    Sure but it's such a small adjustment that it's unlikely to have noticeable effect.
    Sure, compared to a parallel setup, but compared to a properly designed setup it's miles off.

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  19. #19
    blinks ... Billzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    Sure, compared to a parallel setup, but compared to a properly designed setup it's miles off.
    I think the shortness of the trailing arms would accentuate the effect.
    I've always been a bit worried about the parallel/equal length trailing arms on my old racer, but they are literally half the length of the car so I don't think the angles get so bad as to cause any binding.
    (But I could be wrong)
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  20. #20
    Registered User Momus's Avatar
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    Last edited by Momus; 10-06-12 at 02:37 AM.

  21. #21
    Trendsetter is awesome cheapracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    Sure, compared to a parallel setup, but compared to a properly designed setup it's miles off.
    Well what do you consider a proper design? There's quite a number of interpretations as well as a number of applications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billzilla View Post
    I think the shortness of the trailing arms would accentuate the effect.
    I've always been a bit worried about the parallel/equal length trailing arms on my old racer, but they are literally half the length of the car so I don't think the angles get so bad as to cause any binding.
    (But I could be wrong)
    I don't think you would notice it at the lengths you have and small separation, especially as I'm sure you wouldn't have a lot of travel and/or roll either.

    Have you actually tried a Mallock Magic setup with the trailing arms high on one side to offset the live axle torque?

  22. #22
    Registered User Momus's Avatar
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    From experience with a few circuit race sedans I don't think that trailing arm link length is particularly critical. In some ways short links can work in your favour by allowing relatively quicker or greater changes in geometry/and action at the tyre contact patch. Provided they are horizontal and parallel in the plan and side view and with the diff tube is close to centre of the TA bracket they will work satisfactorily.
    There is good argument for the V8 Supercar 700 mm or so long links arranged as a parallelogram, or a lozenged one, but on many race cars rules or available space precludes them.

    Interesting to see the geared BEX arrangement. I will have to make a full size model and run it through the analogue computer before I offer more comment than to say zero backlash gearing and double shear mounting would be important.

    The Mallock arrangement of a Mumford links and rockers seems to have slipped into lateral location folklore. I have modelled these in dozens of ways on SusPro and full sized on the old door I use as an analogue computer and cannot see what the fuss is about. The geometry they provide is counter to what I find works; nobody uses below the ground or at ground level RC's. The roll center moves relative to the sprung chassis which I think is a problem. Conventional chassis rocker mounted Watt's linkages or the less known WOB/Watts have the great virtue of maintaining the roll center in relation to the COG of the sprung mass. This means the moment arm between the RC and SM COG does not change to provide an unwanted variable rate anti roll springing. With the Mumford, Panhards (ugh) and diff mounted Watt's as well as the inclined top or bottom armed abortions the roll centre moves relative to the COG and changes the stabiliser bar (if fitted) and roll spring rates.
    A well known historical anecdote from the early 80's relates to this and Dick Johnson and the Falcon touring cars. The leaf sprung XD was fitted with a chassis mounted Watt's and trailing arms. These cars worked well and with the superior geometry of the wishbone front end probably made a better race car than the Commodores. When the XE's arrived Johnson was at sea with the handling of these. I don't know the details but I think rules forced the use of a diff mounted Watts. It wasn't until the Watts rocker was put into the proper position on the body that they could make the things work. As it happens I have fitted a Watts to a Group C XE Falcon and observed the positive handling change.
    For a low roll centre the WOB/Watt's link in the picture is hard to beat. The horizontal links both mount to the diff and do not care if it is left or right. The bottom pivot which is the geometric and physical RC is obviously low, but a good 50 to 60 mm higher than with a conventional Watts if it could be fitted without being on the bitumen, and on a car is usually neither the lowest part of the one that grounds first. The WOB/Watts has identical geometry to a conventional Watts within the constraints of it's dimensions. Maximum vertical travel is governed by the separation of the top and bottom links. The Cobra has one of these fitted on a fabricated 9" and runs at 2B Sports Car lap record pace.

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  23. #23
    Trendsetter is awesome cheapracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momus View Post
    link picture

    I have no idea why people make WOB links at 50/50, it puts tremendous strain on the center horizontal (long) link and mounts as obviously you are leveraging at 2:1 doubling the lateral force and putting 1:1 lateral force on the top link. Give me a lever and I will move the world - or rip your fucking chassis mounts out!

    Seriously, with your 50/50 upright link, if you are cornering with 1000 kg's of lateral force on your axle then 2000kg's of force is being applied to center link and 1000kgs to the top link...

    If you have a 33/66 link the you get 1500kgs and 430kgs, 20/80 is 1250kgs and 250kgs respectively and so on - substantial load differences/savings. Worth considering.

    These are layouts for an experimental way to steer a beam axle drag link but the priciples are the same for an axle WOB link. The only reason to have distance 'B' any great distance from your axle is clearance reasons otherwise it should be as close as is practical within the design parameters.

    You should be looking towards similar ratios (not the actual dimensions shown) in example 2 if clearance allows ... I added example 3 so others can understand a WOB link.

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    The formula is simple enough; A/A+B = C/D
    "Example 1" above would be 100/150 (2/3) = 400/600 (2/3)
    Last edited by cheapracer; 10-06-12 at 04:26 AM.

  24. #24
    Trendsetter is awesome cheapracer's Avatar
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    And another angle. This is just cobbled up from scrap to test it out ... works brilliantly btw, can change motion ratio easily (A/AB) so can use a standard rack and best of all, it creates perfect variable steering, ie; slow at center and accelerates as lock is applied.
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  25. #25
    DON'T PANIC Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheapracer View Post
    Well what do you consider a proper design? There's quite a number of interpretations as well as a number of applications.
    Ok, well, for a DeDion it doesn't make jack shit difference except under brakes (unless it's got inboard discs like the Alfetta chassis cars). For a live axle car, being able to load the tyres on corner exit seems a pretty big advantage to me - Just because it's something drag racers and speedway guys try to do doesn't mean it's something you don't want to do on a road/circuit car.

    Curious about the application of the beam axle with a rack - Hot rod? Truck?
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  26. #26
    blinks ... Billzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momus View Post
    The Mallock arrangement of a Mumford links and rockers seems to have slipped into lateral location folklore. I have modelled these in dozens of ways on SusPro and full sized on the old door I use as an analogue computer and cannot see what the fuss is about. The geometry they provide is counter to what I find works; nobody uses below the ground or at ground level RC's.
    Neither does any Mallock.


    Quote Originally Posted by Momus View Post
    The roll centre moves relative to the sprung chassis which I think is a problem.
    Not really as the roll centre doesn't move around very much with a Mumford Link; vertically about as much as a Panhard Rod (though it moves in the opposite direction) but with a little (like maybe 10mm) lateral movement as well.
    It's not really a problem and also the only way you can get a low roll centre and also keep the underside of the car clean aerodynamically.
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  27. #27
    blinks ... Billzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheapracer View Post
    I don't think you would notice it at the lengths you have and small separation, especially as I'm sure you wouldn't have a lot of travel and/or roll either.

    Have you actually tried a Mallock Magic setup with the trailing arms high on one side to offset the live axle torque?
    The car rolls about 3° I think so, no, not a lot. With the springs & dampers out each end of the live axle can move a full 125 mm total up/down and that's enough travel to cope with pretty much anything.
    We haven't tried anything Mallock much on the rear end other than to fit the horizontal Watts Link under the diff. The roll centre for that is a little higher than what it would be with a Mumford but it's got all the links sitting out in the breeze so not so good for the aerodynamics.
    The traction isn't a problem at all, I have plenty all the time in any gear. To help counter the live axle torque thing we add about 18 kg on the RR when corner weighting.

    Edit - The rear end is a lot better than it was in the early days, as it used to be pretty stiff in roll (Can't remember why but it'd pick up the inside wheel coming onto the front straight at Lakeside in top gear and spin that wheel a fair bit. Doesn't even think about doing that now) and once we freed it all up it got much better. I think part of the reason is the very long trailing arms which keep any of the nasties away within the angles my diff ever gets to.
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  28. #28
    formerly shinybluesteel Roadsailing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Momus View Post
    Satchell links give little ability to vary the roll centre and need to be run with compliance bushes.
    Lateral location and low friction suspension movement conflict.

    3 links work well in some cases.
    4 link gives more geometry options- assymetrical steer and weight transfer options are there.

    The 4 link is inherently more structurally stable. In my experience the 3 link arrangement tends to put a big twisting load on the diff housing because the top outer is not located. I cannot think of an OE produced beam axle that used 3 link
    WTF? just lost my reply. here goes again, abridged version.

    2005 mustang uses 3 link as per http://www.mustangmonthly.com/featur.../photo_05.html i drove one of these but only long enough to realise i hated the car, didn't care about the rear suspension intricacies.

    I agree with having the arms outboard to provide reaction torque closer to the wheels, if the only issue with 4 link is bind and you can fix it then no reason for 3 link.

    Cheapracer I don't trust gears in an application like that (personal superstition maybe) but you can easily use a symetrical linkage system to do similar, or a mumford link if you like.

    I'm not sure this is a technical forum in the true sense of the word but the criticism of the "dirt road" may be a little bit harsh, that's just the chinese way. you could get edo to put a bit more effort into the photos though.

  29. #29
    Registered User Momus's Avatar
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    Cheap, to keep things real with the Mumford/Watts linkage discussion I have (re)modelled the layout I used on the Cobra and compared it to your modified geometry.

    Both curves- and they are curves, not straight lines- were generated from the same lateral link lengths with only the roll centre changing for yours.

    The proper Mumford with proven performance shows a curve very similar to a classic Watts.

    The Cheap Racer plot is an arc that is no different to the movement of a medium length Panhard.
    For the application you are showing, which definitely needs to be explained and expanded the packaging of the modified Wob is handy, and the deviation from straight probably inconsequential but it is not as good.
    As far as the loadings go, none of the versions have extreme loads. The Cobra uses 7/16" high grade rod ends and 3/8 NAS bolts and nuts- they do have to be watched. On other versions I have running with 1/2" rod ends and less load through the tyres, no problems.

    Bill, I don't know your rear RC height but at around 75 mm from the ground and using a carefully made downpost for the Wob rocker there is very little interference with a rear diffuser/underwing.


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    Last edited by Momus; 10-06-12 at 01:54 PM.

  30. #30
    Trendsetter is awesome cheapracer's Avatar
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    /\ /\

    It's a pleasure to see someone checking with actual "real" systems than a computer, often you see things a computer program doesn't.

    You can create any radius curve you want, just a matter of link length and space of course.

    I have seen others have chassis tearing problems using WOBs and note they all run 50/50 verticals - I think they just see Mallocks diagram and copy it literally even though Mallock only offers the non-dimensioned formula in his drawing.

    http://www.lescanfield.info/images/A...intresting.jpg

    The Bex link can of course be mounted anywhere, can pivot on chassis or axle, upside down, various link lengths and quadrant angles etc. and it is the same principle as a Mumford but with better packaging ability and easier to make (once you have a gear source).

    I'll show more on the steering in a few days along with it's application, actually heading to the factory now to do some more on it.

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