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Thread: long term econ tests: aftermarket coils and other stuff

  1. #91
    bloke with a ute Jay17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shonky View Post
    How much money have you spent so far chasing poofteenths of a decrease in fuel economy
    Absolutely zero.
    I see no rational reason to spend money to obtain a decrease in economy seein' as my goal is to increase economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonky View Post
    and how much have you saved in fuel as a result?
    Money is not the primary motivation here, although i already have gained 50K per tank, so whatever savings that translates to over a few years.
    The primary motivations are curiosity and a fascination of machines and learning shit,
    and the sheer joy of conducting experiments from theories, to discover what is actually possible, testing the claims of manufacturers of both cars and aftermarket products.

    I eventually may spend more money that i save during the life of me ute, but i don't a dingo's kidney about that.
    I'm interested in finding out how to get more econ out of a car.
    Costs incurred on these experiments will save me money on all future cars i may own.
    Plus, most of the things i have done, are standard maintainance jobs for the life of a car, so it's not like i am doing anything extra ordinary.

    While most blokes go for more power and speed, i am far more interested in kickass handling, braking and now, econ.
    I have no need or desire to do burnouts or see how fast i can go.
    Last edited by Jay17; 20-01-17 at 07:29 AM.
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  2. #92
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay17 View Post
    i am far more interested in kickass handling, braking and now, econ.
    It's a Falcon ute.

    No amount of clean eating and squats is going to turn Amanda Vanstone into Emily Ratajkowski.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Italian 510

  3. #93
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    What's the going rate for a dingo's kidney these days?

  4. #94
    Look behind you... Milkman Don's Avatar
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    Have you looked into getting it tuned yet? Also be worth looking at some sheet metal for underside to smooth it out to lower the drag ce
    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Forg View Post
    I agree with Rdyno

  5. #95
    Gas Turbine enthusiast da9jeff's Avatar
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    Easiest way to improve fuel ECONOMY (note the use of the whole word) is to park the ute and buy a 90s honda (or any jap hatch) for $500. Its what i did. Better handling and brakes too.

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  6. #96
    bloke with a ute Jay17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmh265 View Post
    What's the going rate for a dingo's kidney these days?
    Haha, i think it's two fucks.
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  7. #97
    bloke with a ute Jay17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkman Don View Post
    Have you looked into getting it tuned yet? Also be worth looking at some sheet metal for underside to smooth it out to lower the drag ce
    If i get an 'all is good ' report back from the chassis inspection, dyno tune is high up on list, as i have several sensors to replace first.

    Many other things to possibly increase econ before sheetmetal under body.
    I want to leave car original and increase econ, then when i judge i've reached a limit, then look at mods.
    Last edited by Jay17; 26-01-17 at 03:39 AM.
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  8. #98
    bloke with a ute Jay17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by da9jeff View Post
    Easiest way to improve fuel ECONOMY (note the use of the whole word) is to park the ute and buy a 90s honda (or any jap hatch) for $500. Its what i did. Better handling and brakes too.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
    Mein himmel, i've read some stupid posts in this thread.
    Yours goes to the top. Driving another car will not increase the economy of my car.
    Trollish or dumb posts are a hoot to read.
    Just don't expect me to respond to all of them.
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  9. #99
    Look behind you... Milkman Don's Avatar
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    Do the Ford I6 run an EGR system? Blocking that off should help out also
    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Forg View Post
    I agree with Rdyno

  10. #100
    Registered User ls400x's Avatar
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    Actually, EGR helps as it reduces pumping losses

  11. #101
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkman Don View Post
    Also be worth looking at some sheet metal for underside to smooth it out to lower the drag ce
    Plywood undertray, blank the brake scoop/driving light recesses in the front bar, low drag DTM style mirrors, gaffa tape over the panel seams, flush mount radio antenna.. there's a few other tricks, but that's a good start. Building "Hypermilers" out of civics and shit in the states is a bit of a thing among wierdos.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  12. #102
    No I'm Not Shonky Shonky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay17 View Post
    Mein himmel, i've read some stupid posts in this thread.
    Yours goes to the top. Driving another car will not increase the economy of my car.
    Trollish or dumb posts are a hoot to read.
    Just don't expect me to respond to all of them.
    You mean like you just did?

    Oh and some of this:

  13. #103
    Registered User THE CHIEF's Avatar
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    Pump tyres to 40+ psi. You'll be surprised how much economy over inflated tyres can give by reducing the rolling resistance. Chuck some cheesies on it while you're there.

  14. #104
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    In a similar vein - have you had a look at Allmtrs Ute weightloss thread?
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  15. #105
    bloke with a ute Jay17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkman Don View Post
    Do the Ford I6 run an EGR system? Blocking that off should help out also
    Yep, it has. Adding it to things to research, considering...
    Quote Originally Posted by ls400x View Post
    Actually, EGR helps as it reduces pumping losses
    Something suggested earlier, and ordering soon, OBDII scanner, these are my current picks.
    Ebay link 01
    Ebay link 02
    EDIT: After more research, buying this one
    Last edited by Jay17; 27-01-17 at 05:21 PM.
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  16. #106
    Gas Turbine enthusiast da9jeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    Plywood undertray, blank the brake scoop/driving light recesses in the front bar, low drag DTM style mirrors, gaffa tape over the panel seams, flush mount radio antenna.. there's a few other tricks, but that's a good start. Building "Hypermilers" out of civics and shit in the states is a bit of a thing among wierdos.
    Plus that pulse and glide bullshit.

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  17. #107
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    take the fuel cap off to lean out the mixtures... true story.

  18. #108
    bloke with a ute Jay17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    In a similar vein - have you had a look at Allmtrs Ute weightloss thread?
    Post #97
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  19. #109
    bloke with a ute Jay17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE CHIEF View Post
    Pump tyres to 40+ psi. You'll be surprised how much economy over inflated tyres can give by reducing the rolling resistance. Chuck some cheesies on it while you're there.
    Post #1
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  20. #110
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    Interesting read ... back in the days I chased some efficiency from my EF2 Falcon and had a spreadsheet going, mainly because I was doing over 500km/week, I don't have the data anymore but here are some dot points:

    only used the ECON button (gearbox shifting pattern) on the highway, this dropped 1.5L/100km
    got rid of the phatetic gearing and went 3:27 and this transformed the car and achieved further 1L/100km but the car actually launched
    got rid of the auto and went T5 this was about .5L/100km better but it's because I was driving it harder
    skipped 1 tooth on the cam sprocket, this was amazing, got it down to 8L/100km on the highway, the car had a lot of low down power/torque but over 130km/h it was a dog, well over 4000 rpm, anything below it was awesome

    not sure the gearing on the BA but ford have been notorious for really high gearing in their diffs, i have noticed in my GTI i can be doing 100km/h and sit at 5.8L/100km in 6th, drop to 5th and instant fuel usage goes to 5.9L/100km, drop it down to 4th and 6.2L/100km, as soon as you take you foot of the loud pedal the GTI would shut fuel to the cylinders pending on conditions so I would look at that as well when you do your tuning, I was amazed how quickly VW shut the fuel when the engine is in slight vacuum
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  21. #111
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay17 View Post
    Post #97
    So have you fucking done it?
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  22. #112
    bloke with a ute Jay17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XFJET View Post
    Interesting read ... back in the days I chased some efficiency from my EF2 Falcon and had a spreadsheet going, mainly because I was doing over 500km/week, I don't have the data anymore but here are some dot points:

    only used the ECON button (gearbox shifting pattern) on the highway, this dropped 1.5L/100km
    got rid of the phatetic gearing and went 3:27 and this transformed the car and achieved further 1L/100km but the car actually launched
    got rid of the auto and went T5 this was about .5L/100km better but it's because I was driving it harder
    skipped 1 tooth on the cam sprocket, this was amazing, got it down to 8L/100km on the highway, the car had a lot of low down power/torque but over 130km/h it was a dog, well over 4000 rpm, anything below it was awesome

    not sure the gearing on the BA but ford have been notorious for really high gearing in their diffs, i have noticed in my GTI i can be doing 100km/h and sit at 5.8L/100km in 6th, drop to 5th and instant fuel usage goes to 5.9L/100km, drop it down to 4th and 6.2L/100km, as soon as you take you foot of the loud pedal the GTI would shut fuel to the cylinders pending on conditions so I would look at that as well when you do your tuning, I was amazed how quickly VW shut the fuel when the engine is in slight vacuum
    Those are some good econ numbers. A coupla other blokes mentioned similar stats.
    Just reread a Ford tech page and those are equal to or better than factory econ numbers, as the page did say the Ford tests were on a dyno,
    so the numbers would be higher on actual roads.

    Running a T5...huge part of the enjoyment of driving is gear changing.
    Low ratio diff is on the end of the list of things to do...with a T56 6 speed
    Haven't even checked what the ratio is for the XR6s, but i run 2.3-4 thou rpms @100Ks, and that seems a tad high.
    I imagine diff ratios are lower for the utes, carrying heavy shit an all,
    though i imagine different ratio on the XRs as they're useless showponies when it comes to being a work ute.

    Anyways, focusing on engine first.

    Appreciate your input, and would like to hear more details about the cam sprocket mod as i don't fully grasp it,
    and i was thinking about cam chain wear again, wondering if @ 210,000 it's time to replace it.

    Got my OBDII scanner the other day, downloaded Torque for me fone.
    Will give it a run soon, as both unusually busy since Dec and suffering from severe fatigue
    since i picked up that nasty flu virus when i hit Brisse back in Sept.

    Milkman Don, and others earlier mentioned\asked about dyno tuning.
    Notice engine is running ever so slightly off some days, so if no probs show up from scan, tune is first thing on list after chassis inspection.
    And my powerband range seems to have reduced, including power within it, but, this severe fatigue messes with my perception, so i could be mistaken.
    Last edited by Jay17; 08-02-17 at 05:42 AM.
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  23. #113
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    Some things you might want to consider;

    A K&N filter if working as designed can and will allow more air flow into the engine.

    This will increase your fuel requirements and delivery.

    An extractor manifold and exhaust, if working as the "manufacturer claims" should be allowing exhaust gasses to evacuate the cylinder faster. If so, that "should" increase the scavenging effect of the exhaust, increasing the rate and volume of the induction charge. This in turn will create more air flow through the engine.

    This will increase your fuel requirements and delivery.

    Hot air induction is an interesting concept, though its likely to induce detonation, in turn increasing fueling (if it has a knock sensor) along with reducing power, causing you to use more throttle.

    This will increase your fuel requirements and delivery.

    Putting your car on a dyno and flogging it will achieve nothing. You have no parameters to modify.

    Resetting the ecu is a waste of time. The ecu is constantly monitoring all inputs involved in your economy chase and makes 10's of thousands of decisions a second in order to optimise all facets of your driving experience.

    You have modified your suspension, so you can go fast in the bends. When you are doing this, your likely using throttle to control the vehicle.

    This will increase your fuel requirements and delivery.

    The car is older to you now, its not as exciting and you have become accustomed to its performance. Your giving it more throttle to make it more interesting, even though your not right?

    This will increase your fuel requirements and delivery.

    You say that you have spent zero in your endeavors, yet you list;

    Summary of work and status of ute so far...ute has just turned over 210,000Ks

    - Goss coils installed Dec '15 with new platinium plugs and HD Bosch battery. Done 17,000K
    - O2 sensor installed Jan '16
    - Tyre pressures; front 42; rear 40
    - K&N filter installed @189,000Ks, cleaned and reoiled every engine service 5-7000K
    - Gearbox and diff flushed and serviced with additives @ 200,000K
    - HD Kings front springs and new OEM specs shocks all round + Ironman Load Plus rear booster springs installed Nov '15
    - Suspension is good, bearings etc, new brake pads and all disks machined Nov '15

    Thats more than nothing.

    Last of all, your biggest hurdle to overcome on your economy chase is your psychology.

    You have clearly developed an obsession, that means that you are going to disregard any findings outside of your desires.

    That develops a placebo effect, you have spent time, effort, money and reputation on getting the results your wanting and YOUR DAMN WELL GOING TO GET IT!

    It was mentioned that your data acquisition is what some might consider "erroneous" and that may be something you should consider.

    The only thing worse than no data, is bad data.

    Everything you have mentioned you are doing appears to be contrary to gaining economy, but its all about having fun, so enjoy.

  24. #114
    bloke with a ute Jay17's Avatar
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    reducing irrelevant posts
    Last edited by Jay17; 08-12-18 at 05:49 AM.
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  25. #115
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 246GT4 View Post
    Some things you might want to consider;

    A K&N filter if working as designed can and will allow more air flow into the engine.

    This will increase your fuel requirements and delivery.

    Why? The throttle is then closed a little more to make up for the air filter DP decrease.

    An extractor manifold and exhaust, if working as the "manufacturer claims" should be allowing exhaust gasses to evacuate the cylinder faster. If so, that "should" increase the scavenging effect of the exhaust, increasing the rate and volume of the induction charge. This in turn will create more air flow through the engine.

    This will increase your fuel requirements and delivery.

    Engines are dynamic, extractors are fixed. They are designed to increase airflow for peak torque of an engine. They could actually decrease fuel econ at low RPM.

    Hot air induction is an interesting concept, though its likely to induce detonation, in turn increasing fueling (if it has a knock sensor) along with reducing power, causing you to use more throttle.

    This will increase your fuel requirements and delivery.

    Air temp is relative to absolute zero and boyles law. it effects a fuel correction trim, so lowering it actually adds fuel and pulls timing. It's going to also effect pumping losses when dense. I think it'd break even

    Putting your car on a dyno and flogging it will achieve nothing. You have no parameters to modify.
    Base timing and checking that closed loop fuel control is working for cruise would be nice on a dyno. Sneaking a few degrees on the CAS (assuming it's not fixed CAS in the block/head) can help a lot and tune for better fuel.

    Resetting the ecu is a waste of time. The ecu is constantly monitoring all inputs involved in your economy chase and makes 10's of thousands of decisions a second in order to optimise all facets of your driving experience.

    You have modified your suspension, so you can go fast in the bends. When you are doing this, your likely using throttle to control the vehicle.

    This will increase your fuel requirements and delivery.

    The car is older to you now, its not as exciting and you have become accustomed to its performance. Your giving it more throttle to make it more interesting, even though your not right?

    This will increase your fuel requirements and delivery.

    You say that you have spent zero in your endeavors, yet you list;

    Summary of work and status of ute so far...ute has just turned over 210,000Ks

    - Goss coils installed Dec '15 with new platinium plugs and HD Bosch battery. Done 17,000K
    - O2 sensor installed Jan '16
    - Tyre pressures; front 42; rear 40
    - K&N filter installed @189,000Ks, cleaned and reoiled every engine service 5-7000K
    - Gearbox and diff flushed and serviced with additives @ 200,000K
    - HD Kings front springs and new OEM specs shocks all round + Ironman Load Plus rear booster springs installed Nov '15
    - Suspension is good, bearings etc, new brake pads and all disks machined Nov '15

    Thats more than nothing.

    Last of all, your biggest hurdle to overcome on your economy chase is your psychology.

    You have clearly developed an obsession, that means that you are going to disregard any findings outside of your desires.

    That develops a placebo effect, you have spent time, effort, money and reputation on getting the results your wanting and YOUR DAMN WELL GOING TO GET IT!

    It was mentioned that your data acquisition is what some might consider "erroneous" and that may be something you should consider.

    The only thing worse than no data, is bad data.

    Everything you have mentioned you are doing appears to be contrary to gaining economy, but its all about having fun, so enjoy.
    Thoughts
    Jason Broadhurst

    Someone once asked me if they could use my mower. I said "sure, so long as it doesn't leave my yard"

  26. #116
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    Why? The throttle is then closed a little more to make up for the air filter DP decrease.
    Why? Why add a reputed "performance" component to an "economy' project? If, the component is assisting in charge delivery to the engine, every single throttle percentage is seeing more air past it.

    Sure, you can get off the throttle to accommodate the increase, but whats the point? The o2 sensor is still going to see, 1% 3% 4%? more...more air, is more fuel consumed by percentage, regardless of how intuitive any human may be with the throttle.

    Engines are dynamic, extractors are fixed. They are designed to increase airflow for peak torque of an engine. They could actually decrease fuel econ at low RPM.
    How can something that is "fixed" offer an increase on something that is "dynamic"? If, they are designed to increase air flow??? I think you mean exhaust flow? then how would that effect anything? If the exhaust is able to effect the induction (overlap) by way of scavenging, you will (hopefully) see an increase in air consumption through the engine.

    You will need to mix more fuel with this to get any benefits, if you don't a lean mixture will lose you power and drivability. Also, too much exhaust flow loses torque, i.e more foot on throttle. (more fuel)

    A closed loop system is going to constantly compensate for this (more fuel)

    Without modifying cam opening/closing/duration times, your going to get naff all from changing an exhaust. The valves are the final say in engine operation.

    Air temp is relative to absolute zero and boyles law. it effects a fuel correction trim, so lowering it actually adds fuel and pulls timing. It's going to also effect pumping losses when dense. I think it'd break even
    Thats my point? but, low air temps pull timing? are you sure about that?

    Old mate wants to feed his engine HOT air to reduce fuel requirements. That may well lead to detonation. Most knock sensed ECU's add fuel and pull timing when knock is sensed. (some just pull timing) driver response (put foot down)! ROCK APE NO CARE KNOCK!! DRIVE! more fuel across the board.

    The denser "air" is, the more abundant the o2 molecules. Any given engine is going to make more power in Canada in minus 20c than the same engine driving around south east Australia in the 46c just experienced. It will also consume less o2 and use less fuel in a closed loop system.

    I would rather the pumping losses (is that the right term you use) in minus 20c that those that might be found in 46c.

    Cold air induction FTMFW.

    Base timing and checking that closed loop fuel control is working for cruise would be nice on a dyno. Sneaking a few degrees on the CAS (assuming it's not fixed CAS in the block/head) can help a lot and tune for better fuel.
    Now I think your just being argumentative.

    Most post 2000 vehicles will have a check light that will tell you closed loop is fucked along with low cat temp and a host of other associated variables.

    Most (all)? vehicles post 2005 have no available user input by way of timing adjustment/fuel trim.

    Thats what I was speaking of.

    Now, Jason, since you bring up the topic of timing adjustment,

    What happens to a given af/r with set fuel delivery when we;
    A/ Advance timing.
    B/ Retard timing.

    (regardless of fuel type)

  27. #117
    bloke with a ute Jay17's Avatar
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    Okay, so i've got me scanner and using full version of Torque.
    Would appreciate some links or advice on how to use it.
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  28. #118
    Down with ma homies Greg Rust's Avatar
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    Without modifying cam opening/closing/duration times, your going to get naff all from changing an exhaust. The valves are the final say in engine operation.
    The engine is still a product of its environment. Increased pipe friction on the exhaust side impacts pumping losses.
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  29. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Rust View Post
    The engine is still a product of its environment. Increased pipe friction on the exhaust side impacts pumping losses.
    Firstly, I'am not sure what that has to do with putting big exhausts on cars to improve fuel economy? that's what we are talking about here. Beating the silly,dumbarse factory at its own game... good luck..

    Secondly, pipe friction pumping loss impacts?? heavy stuff.... or NOT


  30. #120
    Down with ma homies Greg Rust's Avatar
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    I never said to put big pipes on. Turbulent flow is a result of tight radius compromised bends as a comparison between a standard manifold and a well designed set of headers.
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