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Thread: Irs packages... Thought bubble

  1. #1
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Irs packages... Thought bubble

    I was gonna try and highjack old mates gravel rally thread with some questions, but figured I should he a big boy and start my own thread.

    Get it out of the way early. I'm thinkin of trying to convert my ke70 to irs. I know it's not " worth it" and a well set up live axle will be more than sufficient. But I have my reasons I won't bore you with. Suffice to say despite it being a lot of work for virtually no gain, I might just give it a go.

    But onto the technical bits. I was initially thinkin s chassis nissan rear cradle. Easy strong cheap lsd, easy to narrow to 1410.

    But options have been mentioned that will package better. Especially the mx5 rear end. I'm fail confident I could have the mx5 rear in the right spot and the right width quite easily. But how easy is it to change the wheel stud pcd? I need (and the wheels are non negotiable) 4x114.3 ? How Strong are the diffs ? I've heard the 1.8 diffs put up a good fight?

    Also been mentioned is the possibility of makin an entire cradle and arm package myself. This would be technically very dificult to get right I'm figuring but I would like to learn about the basics of rear suspension regardless.... Does anyone have any hints tips or worldly advice regarding the possibility ?

    I was thinking a very basic double a frame swing arms using Nissan stuff (mainly because I know it better than most lol) ... Not trying to reinvent the wheel at all, just want to make something efffective and cool and learn things ..

    Any advice or tips or stories and experiences welcome...

    Other must have is the capability to have the rear seats installed an fully functioning...

    Thanks

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  2. #2
    Registered User schnitzelburger's Avatar
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    the MX5 stuff all bolts to the power plant frame not the body so it would be more trouble to try and re-engineer it all to bold to the body and then make mounting points onto the body.

    stick with the nissan bits

  3. #3
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnitzelburger View Post
    the MX5 stuff all bolts to the power plant frame not the body so it would be more trouble to try and re-engineer it all to bold to the body and then make mounting points onto the body.

    stick with the nissan bits
    Errr - wot? The power plant frame is a shitty little pressing that joins the nose of the diff to the gearbox tailhousing. The rear cradle still bolts to the shell.

    If you've got some spare time, read this:
    http://classicmotorsports.com/forum/.../72311/page01/

    and this:
    http://www.locostusa.com/forums/view...p?f=36&t=14452

    I'd be inclined to go MX5 cradle over the silvia shit.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  4. #4
    Registered User schnitzelburger's Avatar
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    i blame day light savings

    i suppose i was too focused on how the diff bolts to the PPF

    ignore

  5. #5
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    Errr - wot? The power plant frame is a shitty little pressing that joins the nose of the diff to the gearbox tailhousing. The rear cradle still bolts to the shell.

    If you've got some spare time, read this:
    http://classicmotorsports.com/forum/.../72311/page01/

    and this:
    http://www.locostusa.com/forums/view...p?f=36&t=14452

    I'd be inclined to go MX5 cradle over the silvia shit.
    Thanks for the link mate

    How hard are thing like modded or custom hubs for the pcd? (by hard I men expensive lol )

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  6. #6
    Stupid Engine Light Nacho's Avatar
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    Have heard of a couple of S13 IRS into RWD Corollas over the years, I haven't got any of the links or photos because it didn't interest me.

    One from Japan and one from here from memory.

    Track width will probably be the biggest killer but it should be doable.
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  7. #7
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Track is really easily reduced through the centre of the housing. Thjs will impact the roll centre stuff a bit. I just don't know how.

    I know of 3 aussie installs... 2 good and one a terrible abortion lol.

    Lot of bad ones in England.

    A few good ones in us.

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  8. #8
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fantapants View Post
    How hard are thing like modded or custom hubs for the pcd? (by hard I men expensive lol )
    4 bolt to 4 bolt should be really easy - redrill the pattern clocked 45* (actual angle may depend on other things). It's also common for steel hubs to have the stud holes welded up and re-drilled.
    There are common paths used to go to 5x114.3 for MX5 hubs in the states too via part swapping for Monster Miatas - ford 8.8 centre from a Tbird is common. NA Beams shouldn't prove a problem for the MX5 centre though.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  9. #9
    Registered User trdee's Avatar
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    checking in, cos the KP61's triangulated live axle is shit and i've been toying with the idea of going MX5 rear end on it also
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    Registered User MartyRX2's Avatar
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    Next year when I get back into my 13B Datto 1600 build I'll be getting creative too with IRS. Not only does it need to take 350hp but I need to adjust the pinion angle to 6 degrees to suit the rotor. I'm considering using an FD centre but need to get under one and do some measuring.


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  11. #11
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Whats the bum clearnace and shapes like in the 61 vs a ke70 ?

    I guess I need to start looking for the back end of mx5 to start some proper measurments and plans....

    Also stuck my head under the car for a very breif moment when the Mrs wasnt looking (in currently needled from my port for treatment tomorrow so she is understandably cautious of me playing in the shed with stuff hanging out of my heart lol ) and there is a little bit of room on the inside of the wheel well to run some very close to equal length top arms like this...



    I'm using coilovers at the rear so after a quick look there I not much in the way of doing something like this. Would take a bit of reworking of the lower inside of the wheel well and there might be clearance issues with the handbrake mechanism on disc brakes...

    But it would be a simple nice enough setup with a tidy little watts link (chassis mount) with a good all round improvement ... It's much less work and it may still prove not practical...

    But still considering thanks for all the advice and help guys

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    Registered User trdee's Avatar
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    KP rear end is quite different as it doesnt use parralel 4 links with a panhard rod. it uses a cheaper triangulated 4 link setup like a kingswood etc. my plan was to basically chop the entire rear end out of it and make the whole MX5 rear cradle fit. $$$ but would end up with the least compromises geometry-wise imo.
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  13. #13
    What's that whooshing? Aaron's Avatar
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    MX5 rear hubs are 1.8L 323/Laser front hubs - 55mm centrebore wheels and 4x100mm as said just rotate 45degrees and redrill.

    If you want 5-stud use MX6/626 front hubs for 5x114.3

    The MX5 rear brake setup is basic disc with cable hand brake and common-ish to 323/Laser caliper mounts as well so I think you could get down to 230mm rears if you need to fit inside small wheels.
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  14. #14
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    $$$
    Pfft, bottle of gas & a spool of wire for the welder, some cutting discs, some rhs and some sheetmetal - it's only expensive if you pay someone to do it for you.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  15. #15
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    MX5 rear hubs are 1.8L 323/Laser front hubs - 55mm centrebore wheels and 4x100mm as said just rotate 45degrees and redrill.

    If you want 5-stud use MX6/626 front hubs for 5x114.3

    The MX5 rear brake setup is basic disc with cable hand brake and common-ish to 323/Laser caliper mounts as well so I think you could get down to 230mm rears if you need to fit inside small wheels.
    Good info

    Wheels are genuine watanabe 15 x9.5 and 4x114.3 - a birthday present from Anna so will be built around.

    Disc sizes are fine up to 300 I've seen. But really a nice balanced setup will be fine for me. I'm not big on handbraake arse dragging lol so don't use it a lot when drifting or driving hard. So balanced setup to match the 280mm front willwood setup is the aim.

    Trdee.. the mounting and shape of the mx5 look really compact and easily modifiable to fit so I don't think you would be needing that much cutting to be honest.

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  16. #16
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    Pfft, bottle of gas & a spool of wire for the welder, some cutting discs, some rhs and some sheetmetal - it's only expensive if you pay someone to do it for you.
    #lifemotto lol

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    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Fuck sorry for the cursive ...

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  18. #18
    Registered User trdee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    Pfft, bottle of gas & a spool of wire for the welder, some cutting discs, some rhs and some sheetmetal - it's only expensive if you pay someone to do it for you.
    I would be, so it would be

    Fantapants, would require new strut towers, bracing and mounting to chassis etc, it *should* be much less intensive than something like the s13 since the whole setup is fairly square and self contained (which is why I am considering it) but it's still a lot of work
    Last edited by trdee; 04-10-16 at 05:02 PM.

  19. #19
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    I would be, so it would be

    Fantapants, would require new strut towers, bracing and mounting to chassis etc, it *should* be much less intensive than something like the s13 since the whole setup is fairly square and self contained (which is why I am considering it) but it's still a lot of work
    Just had a look at some Google imaging #eyeverniersaredialledin and I recon you would go very close with using the stock shock location as coilovers with a bit of strengthening of you really wanted. But if it's anything like the ae86 rear shock towers there is plenty of meat to hold the body weight. I've run rear xoilovers there for over 10 years with no sign of the hats even separating. Obviously a hard driving style you might want extra support for price of mind

    But I need to prove I can do it to mine before I start convincing people it really easy for them lol

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    This space left blank Ben Wilson's Avatar
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    Looking at pictures of the hubs, I don't think they aren't going to take well to either welding and redrilling or rotating 45 degrees. There isn't a lot of meat in there...
    Imagination is more important than knowledge.

  21. #21
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    What sort of shoddy dodginess is it to redrill the wheels for a multifit? I have google imaged the back of the wheel face and it looks like they only have the full width of meat in the current drillings... Clocking the wheels 45 leaves the back face hollowed out...

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    anyone? MRMOPARMAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fantapants View Post
    I'm using coilovers at the rear so after a quick look there I not much in the way of doing something like this. Would take a bit of reworking of the lower inside of the wheel well and there might be clearance issues with the handbrake mechanism on disc brakes...
    piece of piss mate

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  23. #23
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Hahha totally : D

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    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    This bloke transplanted most of an MX5 under his Datsun 520 pickup :http://community.ratsun.net/topic/74...20-top-secret/

  25. #25
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    thankls for all the tips and advice guys

    can someone help walk me through roll centres and stuff in terms of settling the cradle at the height i want to run looking to match front roll centres i guess
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    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    The traditional rule of thumb is the lower wishbones should be close to horizontal. Without sitting down and reading a bunch of texts and spending a few hours crunching numbers in cad/excel/susprog3d, aim to install the mx5 rear end at it's stock (or slightly lowered) ride height. It'll be close enough, and you can tune the handling balance with springs and bars.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  27. #27
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    The traditional rule of thumb is the lower wishbones should be close to horizontal. Without sitting down and reading a bunch of texts and spending a few hours crunching numbers in cad/excel/susprog3d, aim to install the mx5 rear end at it's stock (or slightly lowered) ride height. It'll be close enough, and you can tune the handling balance with springs and bars.
    Awesome that's what I was working on.

    I'll get under the car and figure out the angles on the lca at the front then look at trying to match the roll centres roughly to that by using the flat at ride height method lol

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  28. #28
    What's that whooshing? Aaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Wilson View Post
    Looking at pictures of the hubs, I don't think they aren't going to take well to either welding and redrilling or rotating 45 degrees. There isn't a lot of meat in there...
    I think I have a spare pair of 1.8 ABS 4-stud hubs still in a crate in the garage. Will grab pics - but Ben might be right and the thickness varies - being thicker where the wheel studs are pressed through.

    276mm rear rotors as per 2001-2005 NB should fit under the 15s. Otherwise the ~250mm setup will.
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  29. #29
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    I've had a chat with my old boss about rewelding and redrilling and he is confidant we can do it easily enough. So I'll probably go that way. Is there something special about the whole for the spline to bed into or just a sligty smaller size jammed the fuck ? Lol

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  30. #30
    What's that whooshing? Aaron's Avatar
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    If you mean stud holes there's nothing special. Small hole with splined stud as you'd expect.
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