Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 46 of 46

Thread: Water/Meth Injection Questions, Answers and Results

  1. #31
    Registered User clutch-monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    5,173
    Quote Originally Posted by 200MPH View Post
    So, got some hot weather circuit racing testing in with water injection fitted and results are below. Water/Meth mixed as 2/3 water and 1/3 Methanol by volume.

    Day was hot and dry, starting and 28 dec C and getting up to 33 dec C. Location was Babagallo Raceway, Wanneroo. All tests were based on a 3 hard lap distance, to replicate 3 lap supersprints. I let it cool for a couple of laps in a couple of the sessions and then did another 3 laps hard. I don't do endurance racing, so no point in keeping on it for more than 3 laps at a time for my purposes at least.

    Inlet temperatures were measured by inserting thermocouples under rubber hose joining intercooler to piping, both pre and post intercooler. This avoids placing the thermocouple into the airflow stream and recording 'web bulb' temperatures, where the probe gets wet and gives cooler than actual temperature results. I think a lot of the test results published for WMI show web bulb temperatures, making it seem like a magic cooling effect, whereas it is not. Intercooler is standard, but with large scoop and 90 mm hose fitted to direct air from RHS engine side intake, plus some work to open up restrictions in the standard roof intake ducting.

    Have a look a logging test results in attached video and then you can also look at some in car footage so you can get your head around what 3 laps of Barbagallo raceway looks like. Video shows me chasing a supercharged Audi R8 V10 when it was round 32 deg and I was trying the 500 ml/min injection rate. That Audi had some stonk and no way would I be able to stay with it on the straights, as you'd expect.

    Basically, results show that WMI is very effective in reducing and stabilising pre intercooler tempeatures on a hot dry day, with 500 ml/min injection rate resulting in pre intercooler temperature rise of only about 40 deg C above ambient, compared to 75 dec C with no WMI. However it was starting to bog down momentarily on some gearchanges with 500 ml/min injection rate, so I think that's about the limit that can be injected. 300 ml/min is sufficient for most occasions, though 500 provides some benefit on really hot dry days, not that I plan on competing too often on days like that!

    The other thing to note is how well the standard intercooler works, under some pretty severe test conditions. Even with no WMI and 28 deg ambient, the inlet temperatures were only in the low 60 deg range after 3 laps. Adding 300 ml/min and then 500 ml/min only decreased post intercooler temperatures into the mid 50 dec C range. Put another way, maximum post intercooler temperatures in terms of rise above ambient temperature were 34, 27 and 22 Dec C for no WMI, 300 ml/min and 500 ml/min WMI injection rates respectively.

    Speeds achieved were around 205 kph in 5th down the main straight hill, and 180 kph in 4th down the other two straights. Lap times were rubbish as rear tyres were completely shot! But testing was the game, not lap times, so no matter. And it's very easy and fun to slide around as it happens. Didn't miss not having LSD at all on the flowing 3rd and 4th gear corners of this track either.

    https://youtu.be/pIjThRHzNrQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai-vP0WMDng
    Quote Originally Posted by Ke26 Wagon View Post
    used water meth for drag challenge this year...A+++ would bang again!!

    intake temps before burnout were 38+
    Intake temps staging 35+
    Intake temps at 60ft 24
    Intake temps at top of 1/4 30

    Really kept the intake temps stable and allows a little bit of timing and stability. Ran over 10 drags and plenty of street hits along the 3500kms and dint use more then 400ml

    using 50/50 boost juice mix with a AEM mid range nozzle post intercooler, hobbs switch, wm filter and solenoid
    was just about to ask- at what rates are you guys giving and what kind of useage/range does that give.
    don't want to refill halfway up nebo etc
    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski View Post
    Memes are only detectable by NSA.

  2. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    807
    How much will you use? How long is a piece of string?

    I used 300 ml per lap with the 500 ml/min nozzle. Remember you only have it set to inject under boost. Mine comes on at 5psi boost for instance. So on the street or drag strip you won't use much. How long can you stay on boost for your driving? Not long I'd suggest.

  3. #33
    Registered User clutch-monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    brisbane
    Posts
    5,173
    Quote Originally Posted by 200MPH View Post
    How much will you use? How long is a piece of string?

    I used 300 ml per lap with the 500 ml/min nozzle. Remember you only have it set to inject under boost. Mine comes on at 5psi boost for instance. So on the street or drag strip you won't use much. How long can you stay on boost for your driving? Not long I'd suggest.
    about 2 seconds in the 964 before it tries to put me in a tree, yep. sounds perfect for keeping heatsoak away! going by your useage at full track day pace a reservoir of 4-5L or so should last ages on the street.
    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski View Post
    Memes are only detectable by NSA.

  4. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    australia
    Posts
    714
    Quote Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
    about 2 seconds in the 964 before it tries to put me in a tree, yep. sounds perfect for keeping heatsoak away! going by your useage at full track day pace a reservoir of 4-5L or so should last ages on the street.
    I used to have around a 5L tank on about 500-600cc/min nozzle and it would take a week or two to empty that thrashing a 410rwkw 13b.

    The higher the power the more water you use but also its hard to stay flat throttle for 10seconds so you can imagine your water lasts quite a while .




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #35
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    18,322
    Quote Originally Posted by thebluerx7 View Post
    Yeah Im A big fan of just straight water injection pre-turbo.

    I used to use a rice racing pneumatic kit preturbo into a proboost gt45 on my 13bre years ago . Simple and effective .

    Could not keep an engine together on the street at over 350-400rwhp for long at all(under 5000kms even at rich afr and retarded)Installed water and could run 550rwhp limiter bashing into the sunset on 27psi and pump 98 fuel for several years.that was at a time when there was only a handful of cars in Aus on 98 fuel doing that those sort of numbers on 98 fuel

    I am going to setup water again on my turbo Pajero project.

    Its good to see you using it on the super high hp gtrs.

    Theres just so many positives and no negatives really, and can make the same power as e85 cars without the fuel availability issues


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I used the same setup years ago, worked well.. these days I would do it a little different and use the ecu to control when and how much water to inject
    im a cunt
    and apparently i dont know shit...

  6. #36
    Registered User MWP's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    1,840
    Quote Originally Posted by 10sec rx7 View Post
    these days I would do it a little different and use the ecu to control when and how much water to inject
    Multiple staged nozzles?
    Pulsed stainless fuel injectors?
    Variable pump speed / water pressure?

    It's always made me wonder the best way to go about controlling water injection rate.
    (i haven't looked recently to see what the commercially available units do)
    Last edited by MWP; 18-12-18 at 03:57 PM.

  7. #37
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    18,322
    No full mechanical still but use a Mac valve or similar to bring in the water and only allow the water to come in above a certain throttle position etc..
    im a cunt
    and apparently i dont know shit...

  8. #38

  9. #39
    Registered User trdee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    3,698
    have a look at glenn archer's build thread for a pretty schmick water injection install
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - project #1 | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - project #2 | 1994 UZZ31 Soarer 1UZ-FZE - Cruise missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski talking like a crazed hobo View Post
    The major arrests will start from 1st January 2019.

  10. #40
    Registered User [RX3]'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,257
    I am thinking about doing this for my MX73, looks like there wont be a great deal of airflow over the intercooler and was hoping that possibly fitting something prior to the throttle body will help with intake air temps.

    Would something like the AEM unit work okay?

  11. #41
    . crack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    BNE
    Posts
    2,495
    before buying anything i'd figure out how you want to control injection (e.g. on/off, pwm, stand alone controller, through aftermarket ecu) and if you want a failsafe (e.g. level switch, flow meter, change boost / tune, etc.)
    also select nozzle size for your application

    should help narrow down the kits

  12. #42
    Registered User TRD-MX62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    melb
    Posts
    1,911
    AEM do a nice failsafe flow meter for water injection
    Quote Originally Posted by ALLMTR View Post
    the theory is the fuel pump is one of the only things that can fuck out on a diesel

  13. #43
    Registered User [RX3]'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,257
    Looking at the aquamist stuff now, pretty useful website.

  14. #44
    Arrogant wankeler Slides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Central West/Lake Macquarie
    Posts
    1,390
    For the cost and hassle of needing an interface for any decent controller with failsafes etc you are probably better off using an ecu with enough inputs and switxhed/pwm outputs even if using a high pressure pump system. Single interface for tuning and status gets logged with the other ecu data. Just read up on the different failsafe strategies. Means you don't have to wire serial relays for boost control solenoids and if you are using a digital in to the ecu to switch boost target why not just program the lot internalky and use a full 3d map?

    You can buy pumps, solenoids and nozzles all separate anyway.

  15. #45
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    807
    How close to the edge do you want to push it? I just use a simple boost and rpm logic control output from ECU to trigger my WMI pump. Then I use that output as a logic input to the ecu to advance timing and reduce fuel injected. But there is no failsafe in my system at all! I could also use the ECU wastegate control to control the pump speed via PWM mapping, though I'd have to use a solid state relay to do so as the pump draws more amps than ECU can control.

    There's all sorts of options and possibilities. But for me (using a roots blower), a simple setup works just fine for what I want and was cheap at A$500. As Crack said, work out what you want from a system first.

  16. #46
    Registered User MWP's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    1,840
    I installed system on my GT4 Celica last week.
    I bought a cheap(er) 2nd hand Snow Performance system off eBay, then bought new nylon hose, fittings, and a couple of extra nozzles.

    The tables/calcs said i needed around 500ml/min.
    The kit i bought came with a #2 (100ml/min) and #5 (375ml/min) nozzles.

    So i've installed the #2 nozzle just after the air-filter, pre-turbo.
    I've pointed it back towards the air-filter hoping that larger droplets will pool in the air-filter, rather than hitting the turbine blades.
    The #5 nozzle i've mounted about 5in before the throttle body.
    I've also installed two ~150ml/min fogger nozzles in front of my intercooler.

    The pump and solenoid are controlled by a MegaSquirt 3 ECU.
    It turns on the pump & solenoid when above 3000rpm and >100kpa.
    The MS3 can PWM the solenoid on a load vs rpm table... i'll experiment with that later.

    I entered an event over the weekend (Mount Alma Mile Hillclimb)... the intake manifold air temps stayed around 35-40C.
    WI was on all the time so i didn't have a chance to compare temps, but under prev similar conditions temps would be well over 55deg.

    Some video showing intake temps :https://youtu.be/gziJ18nKvOo?t=218
    Last edited by MWP; 06-04-19 at 01:43 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •