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Thread: Black Box PDM's

  1. #1
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    Black Box PDM's

    GR Motorsport Electrics is a dealer for these, pricing is around the $2200 mark for the 30ch. Not a great deal of info though.

    Stay away and save up for a HP Electronik 8441 / Motec PDM30?
    Last edited by sssgtr; 24-10-18 at 10:04 AM.

  2. #2
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    You’re not serious are you?

    Checked date and its not april, so you’re serious.

    Fuck. Get help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bosshoggett View Post
    If your planing to drive this on the road and enjoy it, id suggest a second opinion, someone with a history in Australian Rally or Fink River . If your just playing dyno comps. Then ok

  3. #3
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ burn is weird's Avatar
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    man the Motec M30 is only another 700 bucks. you'd be nuts.

    Oo___oO


  4. #4
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    Point taken.

    Apparently the HP Electronik 8441 is pretty good. But again, for the extra $400 gets me the motec.

  5. #5
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
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    the electronik is suppose to be good, haven't seen one tho.

    I still like the racepak one if your using a supported ecu, they are simple to program and work,

    I would probably give anything black box a miss.. if you have more money to spend buy a motec one.
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  6. #6
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    Fucking motec....$300 for the UTC adapter just to program it????

  7. #7
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
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    lol yeh… they are not cheap...
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  8. #8
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    That turns the pdm30 into a $3200 affair.

    Bit shit when the HP 8441 is $2400, you're not the only one Dale who has mentioned that they are supposed to be a good thing.

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    You can borrow a utc from anyone, you’re not programming a PDM often. Plan, do once. I’ll lend you mine if you’re in bris.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bosshoggett View Post
    If your planing to drive this on the road and enjoy it, id suggest a second opinion, someone with a history in Australian Rally or Fink River . If your just playing dyno comps. Then ok

  10. #10
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sssgtr View Post
    Bit shit when the HP 8441 is $2400, you're not the only one Dale who has mentioned that they are supposed to be a good thing.
    ive never programmed one, I have tuned a car that had one installed in it, there was no electrical issues with that car and it appeared to work perfectly..
    im a cunt
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  11. #11
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    It seems you're approaching this as an item by item approach SSS. You want an entire system. Everything will more or less do the job more or less as capably as it comes to running an engine, and turning shit on and off.

    You're using an emtron ecu? Excellent, motec pdm, dash. Job done.
    Using a haltech? throw a racepak normalintelligence-wire at it.
    Syvecs? then life racing pdu, and plex dash.
    Motec? well thats obvious.

    Some shit just works easier, more streamlined and has been done a thousand times. Trying to save $500 will lead to $500 in troubleshooting and thrown tools and frustration later. That adds up obviously. Yes the PDM will cost more. And you probably want to spend more than that and have two PDM's anyway depending on chassis setup.

    Skimping on the dash to use an aim or a racepak over a motec? Well have fun using a keypad to cancel warnings, adjust settings/brightness/screen flip/see adjustments and map switching/trims etc.

    Good thing with emtron logging is it'll log all the pdm channels and sundry data.

    It sucks but the industry does not mix and match too well, despite being a huge jump ahead of even just a few years ago.

    Examine the reasons you're using an Emtron in the first place and you'll find its because it's a 3k saving on an M150 being built to identical capability in firmware and an LTCD. Hell an M150 and M1.4Dev license is $6k before you've paid a single person to type a line of code to get something you want working.

    Also remember the interface is what matters most once the capability is there. The prettyness of the anodizing and the flash website means fuck all, if once you're in the car the user interface is cumbersome and unintuitive and you have a dozen analogue switches and dials and crap that could otherwise be on a single keypad or rotary switch etc. If the dash doesnt tell you the information being gathered by the bus and available your troubleshooting is suddenly multiple open programs etc and comms conflicts with laptop and...fuck that noise.

    Speak to your dealer. Write all your inputs and outputs down in excel for all hardware. Assign every channel and wire and input. Repeat and compare between brands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bosshoggett View Post
    If your planing to drive this on the road and enjoy it, id suggest a second opinion, someone with a history in Australian Rally or Fink River . If your just playing dyno comps. Then ok

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    https://www.liferacing.com/products/pdus/pdu34a/ no UTC needed, saved you $270.

    Waiting for new motec PDM's that can do comparable shit like the 10k hz low side switching for pwm high current control. I'm sure they're in the working on it as PDM15/30/16/32 are getting on in age.
    Last edited by cracka; 24-10-18 at 03:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bosshoggett View Post
    If your planing to drive this on the road and enjoy it, id suggest a second opinion, someone with a history in Australian Rally or Fink River . If your just playing dyno comps. Then ok

  13. #13
    Registered User trdee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    It seems you're approaching this as an item by item approach SSS. You want an entire system. Everything will more or less do the job more or less as capably as it comes to running an engine, and turning shit on and off.

    You're using an emtron ecu? Excellent, motec pdm, dash. Job done.
    Using a haltech? throw a racepak normalintelligence-wire at it.
    Syvecs? then life racing pdu, and plex dash.
    Motec? well thats obvious.

    Some shit just works easier, more streamlined and has been done a thousand times. Trying to save $500 will lead to $500 in troubleshooting and thrown tools and frustration later. That adds up obviously. Yes the PDM will cost more. And you probably want to spend more than that and have two PDM's anyway depending on chassis setup.

    Skimping on the dash to use an aim or a racepak over a motec? Well have fun using a keypad to cancel warnings, adjust settings/brightness/screen flip/see adjustments and map switching/trims etc.

    Good thing with emtron logging is it'll log all the pdm channels and sundry data.

    It sucks but the industry does not mix and match too well, despite being a huge jump ahead of even just a few years ago.

    Examine the reasons you're using an Emtron in the first place and you'll find its because it's a 3k saving on an M150 being built to identical capability in firmware and an LTCD. Hell an M150 and M1.4Dev license is $6k before you've paid a single person to type a line of code to get something you want working.

    Also remember the interface is what matters most once the capability is there. The prettyness of the anodizing and the flash website means fuck all, if once you're in the car the user interface is cumbersome and unintuitive and you have a dozen analogue switches and dials and crap that could otherwise be on a single keypad or rotary switch etc. If the dash doesnt tell you the information being gathered by the bus and available your troubleshooting is suddenly multiple open programs etc and comms conflicts with laptop and...fuck that noise.

    Speak to your dealer. Write all your inputs and outputs down in excel for all hardware. Assign every channel and wire and input. Repeat and compare between brands.
    I wish more people had your thought process haha. Well written
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    https://www.liferacing.com/products/pdus/pdu34a/ no UTC needed, saved you $270.

    Waiting for new motec PDM's that can do comparable shit like the 10k hz low side switching for pwm high current control. I'm sure they're in the working on it as PDM15/30/16/32 are getting on in age.
    if you have any outputs that need that kind of hi frequency hi power and you still have the emtron KV8, the DO 13-16 will do 15/40a at 15khz. I'd high side drive it so you can use the separate power supply input and not saturate the ECU grounds. what needs the 10khz?

    Oo___oO


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    Exceeding audible levels when switching bigger pumps. PS pumps whine like cunts at 100hz. Also wreaks havoc with hall current sensors switching at low frequency. Maybe pdm’s handle this with averaging, but inputting 0-5v off little allegro sensors would be all over the shop (or it’s a function of cheap sensor? Fucks me). Assume same applies to fuel pumps etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bosshoggett View Post
    If your planing to drive this on the road and enjoy it, id suggest a second opinion, someone with a history in Australian Rally or Fink River . If your just playing dyno comps. Then ok

  16. #16
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    Regarding high side driving through ecu, you’re then running the high current direct often times both directions long a car. A 2nd remote PDM ftw once they exist outside of LMP level hardware, or low side switch an SSR. That and AMP superseal’s aren’t exactly the nicest connector to run larger gauge cables with, no crimper handles the strain relief neatly above about 16awg etfe or 18awg txl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bosshoggett View Post
    If your planing to drive this on the road and enjoy it, id suggest a second opinion, someone with a history in Australian Rally or Fink River . If your just playing dyno comps. Then ok

  17. #17
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    Thanks for the insight cracka, appreciate the offer to borrow your UTC (I'm in Victoria, otherwise I'd take you up on it)

    I am mapping everything out, which is how I worked out that the PDM15 will be maxxed out straight off in terms of outputs.

    I'm trying to work within a budget, which is why I can't just rock up to Motec and ask for 1 of each.

    Anything is better than the 29 year old wiring that is there in the car currently.

    I've done a side by side spec comparison against the pdm30 and the HP8441. Very similar in capability. However, in the HP8441, single low power channels are rated at 2.9a max continuous draw, meaning you have to pair it up with another channel to get a higher continuous current rating if required. Documentation states that if you need max continuous draw of 8a for your low power channels, that ends up reducing your low power output count from 16 to 4.

  18. #18
    Smoke em if you got em! LINCOLN's Avatar
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    I have a UTC you can borrow in Vic.

  19. #19
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
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    I high side PWM through the smartwire all the time for fuel and water pumps as well as thermo fans and trans brakes..
    im a cunt
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  20. #20
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINCOLN View Post
    I have a UTC you can borrow in Vic.
    Appreciate the offer Lincoln, if I go with the pdm30 I'll stump up and buy one.

  21. #21
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    So PDM30 manual says it doesn't do motor speed control.

    Kind of a problem since I don't want to drive my Tilton gearbox oil pump flat out unnecessarily, and only run it when gear oil temp reaches a specific value.

    I'm probably best doing this through the Emtron in any case?

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    I've also got a utc if you want to borrow in Victoria.
    I was a pdm sceptic but now that it's all wired in and programmed I'm pretty impressed with it.

  23. #23
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sssgtr View Post
    So PDM30 manual says it doesn't do motor speed control.

    Kind of a problem since I don't want to drive my Tilton gearbox oil pump flat out unnecessarily, and only run it when gear oil temp reaches a specific value.

    I'm probably best doing this through the Emtron in any case?
    you could just turn it on at X temp etc,

    i know on the smart wire i can PWM one of the inputs and it speed controls the pump
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    Gearbox oil off a thermocouple? fair enough if you’re out of voltage/sensor ins. You can also use all the digital in’s as voltage in (at 8 and 10 bit rather than 12 from memory)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bosshoggett View Post
    If your planing to drive this on the road and enjoy it, id suggest a second opinion, someone with a history in Australian Rally or Fink River . If your just playing dyno comps. Then ok

  25. #25
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    Sorry, via the Racegrade TC8 over CAN.

  26. #26
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    Oops accidentally deleted my previous post.
    Gear temp sent over CAN, idea is to set temp thresholds for on and off.
    I bought the intermittent duty pump, so I don't want to run it flat out unnecessarily over a 20min session, hence the need for PWM control.

  27. #27
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sssgtr View Post
    Sorry, via the Racegrade TC8 over CAN.
    interested to see how you find the racegrade tc8...i brought one for testing some stuff, used it once, threw it in the drawer to never be used again... what ever they have got PCS to put on the firmware in them totally fucks up a good box,
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  28. #28
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    What revision was the firmware?

  29. #29
    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    What issues did you have with it?

  30. #30
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
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    Here you go...

    Racegrade box (PCS with racegrade firmware)



    Haltech TC8 (pcs with Haltech Can)

    Last edited by 10sec rx7; 26-10-18 at 07:44 PM.
    im a cunt
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