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Thread: Water/Meth Injection Questions, Answers and Results

  1. #1
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    Water/Meth Injection Questions, Answers and Results

    G'day All,

    Thought I'd start a new water injection thread for the sharing of info and results on the topic. To kick things off, I'd like to share the results from a couple of builds I have been involved with recently.

    Those who have read some of my previous post would know that there has been some discussion about water meth injection (WMI) vs E85. After years of looking at the 2 in isolation, I recently had the opportunity to test them as combination after installing water injection systems in 2 R32GTRs, both of which used e85 as primary fuel. The first car ran a stock bottom end RB 26 with a big Precision turbo. On 27 psi, it made 800hp. With 500cc of post intercooler WMI it made an 830hp, will power remaining consistent on back to back pulls. At the Cootamundra GTR drag battle, with ambient temps of 30 degrees, the car ran very fast and consistent times, the quickest being a 9.97. The maximum intake air temp logged at the end of a run was 33 degrees. Under the same conditions without the WMI, intake air temps reached in excess of 90 degrees.

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....0412014536.jpg

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....0507170211.jpg

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....0412000341.jpg

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....0412000341.jpg


    The second car runs a RB 3.2L stroke bottom end with a 26 head, an 8582 precision turbo and a turbo 400 auto conversion. On 40 psi boost, it made 1078hp. With the WMI activated, 7% fuel trim and 2 more degrees of ignition timing, power increased to 1141hp. This car is yet to be track tested. Iíll post the results once they are in.

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....0412000341.jpg

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....0525233649.jpg

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....0525233542.jpg
    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....0523225632.jpg

    As previously mentioned, both cars involved were running e85 as primary fuel. The ambient air temps during the tuning of both cars was 15-18 degrees C. The reason for the addition of WMI was to increase overall efficiency of the turbo charging system by keeping intake air temps low and consistent. This was achieved along with more power and a greater safety margin.

    Cheers

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    Registered User ls400x's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing. Interesting stuff!

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    are hairy Dogsballs's Avatar
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    I run 98 on my barra and not overly keen on going to e85, so curious to follow

    Where have you placed the systems? Before intercooler
    Quote Originally Posted by 50RTD View Post
    Dave, have you uploaded the data from the carby?

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    Yeah Iím A big fan of just straight water injection pre-turbo.

    I used to use a rice racing pneumatic kit preturbo into a proboost gt45 on my 13bre years ago . Simple and effective .

    Could not keep an engine together on the street at over 350-400rwhp for long at all(under 5000kms even at rich afr and retarded)Installed water and could run 550rwhp limiter bashing into the sunset on 27psi and pump 98 fuel for several years.that was at a time when there was only a handful of cars in Aus on 98 fuel doing that those sort of numbers on 98 fuel

    I am going to setup water again on my turbo Pajero project.

    Itís good to see you using it on the super high hp gtrs.

    Thereís just so many positives and no negatives really, and can make the same power as e85 cars without the fuel availability issues


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    Quote Originally Posted by thebluerx7 View Post
    Yeah Iím A big fan of just straight water injection pre-turbo.

    I used to use a rice racing pneumatic kit preturbo into a proboost gt45 on my 13bre years ago . Simple and effective .

    Could not keep an engine together on the street at over 350-400rwhp for long at all(under 5000kms even at rich afr and retarded)Installed water and could run 550rwhp limiter bashing into the sunset on 27psi and pump 98 fuel for several years.that was at a time when there was only a handful of cars in Aus on 98 fuel doing that those sort of numbers on 98 fuel

    I am going to setup water again on my turbo Pajero project.

    Itís good to see you using it on the super high hp gtrs.

    Thereís just so many positives and no negatives really, and can make the same power as e85 cars without the fuel availability issues


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    why preturbo? whats the advantage pre vs post?

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    Water/Meth Injection Questions, Answers and Results

    Quote Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
    why preturbo? whats the advantage pre vs post?
    Pre turbo needs no pump at all, boost pressurises the tank, and via a solenoid goes to nozzle atomizer. Nothing to fail.

    Mine was about 600cc/min pre turbo and no visible compressor wear etc.

    Iím not saying itís the best of the best but thatís the reasons I like it.


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    Relevant to my current situation.

    Presently installing a wmi system on my supercharged 2zzge donk. Mostly doing it to keep inlet temps consistent on track over the normal supersprint 3 lap duration.

    Only upgraded supercharger pulley ratio a little, not more than 10 psi boost compared to about 7psi standard.

    Issue I have is that its not a current gen tvs charger, but is a MP62, which will heat air around 80 deg C above ambient at the rpm and boost levels it will now run. Makes nice old school supercharger noise at least... Other issue is that it as a near useless A/A intercooler mounted in a mid engined car. So heat soak happens pretty quick after a lap or two on track

    Could run E85, but pretty pointless in WA.

    Will post some results in a couple of weeks when on the road again.

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    Down with ma homies Greg Rust's Avatar
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    What about high Comp NA V8ís, can I do this hotness with a nitrous under carb spray bar and a 044?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Rust View Post
    What about high Comp NA V8ís, can I do this hotness with a nitrous under carb spray bar and a 044?
    Yeah it works but the gains aren't as good as a blown or turbo car. I tuned a centrifugally blown mustang a while ago and for space reasons he couldn't run an intercooler so it got water meth injection and table switched the tables inside the ecu when the water injection was running for safety. I think it ended up with 100 more HP with the meth at the same boost because we could run heaps more spark timing and the intake air temps went down during the runs which was a bit what the fuck.

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    Registered User clutch-monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebluerx7 View Post
    Pre turbo needs no pump at all, boost pressurises the tank, and via a solenoid goes to nozzle atomizer. Nothing to fail.

    Mine was about 600cc/min pre turbo and no visible compressor wear etc.

    Iím not saying itís the best of the best but thatís the reasons I like it.


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    ok cool, sounds like the simplest way to drop air temps easily without going bigger intercooler (space limitations)

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    Water/Meth Injection Questions, Answers and Results

    Quote Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
    ok cool, sounds like the simplest way to drop air temps easily without going bigger intercooler (space limitations)
    The meth will drop air temps , straight water seems to just give more stable EGTís.

    I could pull 1st to 5th gear and over 300kmh and keep my egts under 900-920degC on my rotor donk with straight water . I donít use it for intake control I use it for egt control. That was the solution to engine longevity with the rotors , keeping egt stable on massive pulls, rich afr (10.5-10.8)just didnít seem to do it enough and it allowed you to run retarded timing on pump (2-5deg adv) and still maintain good egt.

    Adding meth seems to give an element of intake temp control aswell but I couldnít be fucked doin that when I could just use a tap anywhere and top my water up .

    For these huge hp cars I can see the meth is a further bonus


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    Registered User clutch-monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebluerx7 View Post
    The meth will drop air temps , straight water seems to just give more stable EGTís.

    I could pull 1st to 5th gear and over 300kmh and keep my egts under 900-920degC on my rotor donk with straight water . I donít use it for intake control I use it for egt control. That was the solution to engine longevity with the rotors , keeping egt stable on massive pulls, rich afr (10.5-10.8)just didnít seem to do it enough and it allowed you to run retarded timing on pump (2-5deg adv) and still maintain good egt.

    Adding meth seems to give an element of intake temp control aswell but I couldnít be fucked doin that when I could just use a tap anywhere and top my water up .

    For these huge hp cars I can see the meth is a further bonus


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    ah gotcha, useful to keep in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ls400x View Post
    Thanks for sharing. Interesting stuff!
    Cheers mate. It's all about sharing the knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogsballs View Post
    I run 98 on my barra and not overly keen on going to e85, so curious to follow

    Where have you placed the systems? Before intercooler
    In the Barra install I completed recently, I used 2 jets in the charge pipe, just after the intercooler. We ran an extra 6psi and a bit more ignition timing for a gain of almost 100hp and a plenty of torque.

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....8200026060.jpg

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....215705_244.jpg

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....2452_048-1.jpg

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....215705_245.jpg

    https://coolrunningsengineering.com....112452_047.jpg

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    are hairy Dogsballs's Avatar
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    That's a decent gain. 5 gallon tank?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50RTD View Post
    Dave, have you uploaded the data from the carby?

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    The tank is 10L. 2.7 gallons.

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    I ran wmi years ago on my supra, was able to run 30psi on 98 fuel.
    However it was a backyard tune of the system because whenever i asked a tuner they didnt want to know about it. So i myself started logging and just adding a bit of timing and adjusting fuel mixtures.

    I now run e85 but removed wmi, not sure if legal in the wtac/supersprint/hillclimbs races?

    Whats the best and most reliable wmi kit out there now?
    93 tt supra,black 6 speed
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    Smoke em if you got em! LINCOLN's Avatar
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    https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

    This page has a lot of good info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAZMAN View Post
    I ran wmi years ago on my supra, was able to run 30psi on 98 fuel.
    However it was a backyard tune of the system because whenever i asked a tuner they didnt want to know about it. So i myself started logging and just adding a bit of timing and adjusting fuel mixtures.

    I now run e85 but removed wmi, not sure if legal in the wtac/supersprint/hillclimbs races?

    Whats the best and most reliable wmi kit out there now?
    Aquamist, without a doubt, is the best, most reliable system on the market.

    http://www.aquamist.co.uk

  20. #20
    "The bitches, are wet" Sketchy's Avatar
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    At the other end of the spectrum I setup a WMI install on my old D22 Navara with the grenade ZD30 after I sold it to the old man and made 40hp/120nm gain with a 50/50 mix on a 600cc nozzle boost referenced. Pretty much bang on a 50% gain.

    Would definitely bang again, thanks for the reminder to do this with a few of my other cars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketchy View Post
    At the other end of the spectrum I setup a WMI install on my old D22 Navara with the grenade ZD30 after I sold it to the old man and made 40hp/120nm gain with a 50/50 mix on a 600cc nozzle boost referenced. Pretty much bang on a 50% gain.

    Would definitely bang again, thanks for the reminder to do this with a few of my other cars.
    It didnt work out well on the 300zx
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    So, did some testing last night and here are some results for those interested.

    Car: Exige S
    Donk: 2ZZGE standard Toyota/Yamaha spec. 11.5 compression ratio, high lift cam (same as VTEC) comes in at 5400 rpm, revs to 8500 rpm.
    Boost maker: Starndard issue MP62 supercharger with standard issue A/A intercooler. Smaller pulley fitted for more boost. Standard boost for these is 150 kPa absolute (0.5 bar gauge or 7.5 psi gauge). It now has a bit more boost, more on that later...

    Inlet - MAF deleted, straight 3" inlet pipe into throttle body with water injection nozzle after pod airfilter, about 300 mm before throttle body (which of course is on inlet site to supercharger).

    Exhaust - standard headers/cat but Varex muffler, set to straight through for all testing.


    Simple Snow Performance Water/Meth injection. I'm injecting 50/50 (by volume) mix of meth/distilled water. I have water injection set to come on at 4000 rpm and above 133 kPa, controlled by ECU signal to WMI pump. Nozzle used is a #3 nozzle, nominally 175 cc/min, but I tested several times and it flows 300 cc/min. Which is about 22% by mass of the fuel injected at full power.

    When WMI is triggered, the ECU applies a 12% leaner fuel trim. Also applieds a timing change, which is tested at various levels below.


    Test condtions:

    Done at night on a level road, 12 deg ambient, clear night so not too humid or much moisture in the air. All air ducting to intercooler blocked off, so as to try get a bit of heat soak on a cold night to better represent a warmer ambient temperature, or a lap or three on track.


    Acceleration measured using logging of ecu front wheel speed sensors (normal used for ABS control). So accurate enough. 3 acceleration runs performed for each test and the 3 results averaged.


    Tested in 3rd gear, full throttle from a bit below 4000 rpm through to around 8300 rpm. 4000 RPM is below where I'd normally use full throttle, but wanted to see if it bogged down when WMI came on. Would normally operate in the 5000 - 8500 rpm range on track, donk needs to rev! Even with supercharger and instant boost it's a bit pointless down low.

    OK so 70 - 140 kmh (4000 - 8100 rpm) averaged run times are as follows:

    No WMI, timing left as is (24 deg timing at 6000 rpm and up): 5.1 s
    WMI on, timing left as is: 5.21 s
    WMI on, 2deg extra timing: 5.05 s
    WMI on, 3 deg extra timing: 4.98 s
    WMI on, 4 deg extra timing: 4.92 s
    WMI on, 5 deg extra timing: 4.86 s

    Post intercooler temperatures were in the low - mid 40 deg range for the tests. Remember the intercooler is just acting as a heat sink as no airflow over it.

    So, as expected, it's a little slower with WMI on and no change to timing. Burns a bit slower, water displaces air, make your excuses! But with extra timing it went better. I will leave it set to 4 deg extra timing as the knock sensor level was getting more elevated at 5 deg and the improvement in power seems to be diminishing.

    Comparing 110 - 140 kmh accel times between 4 and 5 deg advanced showed no difference, so top end power not really improving with extra timing.


    One interesting thing is that the boost level is affected by WMI, as per internet rumours. Without WMI it would get up to around 170 kPa (10 psi). But with WMI on it would get around 180 kPa (11.5 psi). So the effect of injecting WM into the inefficient MP62 supercharger definitely helps it. Note that this supercharger is spinning around 15000 RPM at max engine speed, has an adiabatic efficiency of around 50% and flows around 500 cfm at that speed and boost. Which means that of the 25 kW required to drive it, about 50 % of that power turns into heat in the inlet air! Now you know why I fitted WMI!

    Data logged from a standard setup (like mine) GT production sports Exige S back in 2009, running around 7.5 - 8 psi at Bathurst shows 90 deg plus inlet air temperatures post intercooler, on a 28 deg ambient day.

    I don't have data logged under track condtions just yet, except I did put a tell tale temperature strip on the inlet tank of the intercooler before my first rallysprint. On a 19 deg clear day and over 8 rallysprint runs of 2 min 50 sec duration each, it never got above 75 deg with the WMI running all day. So that's a win I think, even if not incredibly scientific logging... So it would hopefully be 40 - 50 post intercooler, but didn't have computer logging in car that day, co-driver said they were busy enough thanks.

    My main aim of installing WMI was not to make heaps more power, but to keep power level consistent without too much drop off after a few laps on track, and also to help the fairly weak standard pistons live with boost, remembering that the 2ZZGE was not designed for boost. Let's see how long it lasts!


    That's me done for now!
    Last edited by 200MPH; 20-07-18 at 12:02 PM.

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    So, got some hot weather circuit racing testing in with water injection fitted and results are below. Water/Meth mixed as 2/3 water and 1/3 Methanol by volume.

    Day was hot and dry, starting and 28 dec C and getting up to 33 dec C. Location was Babagallo Raceway, Wanneroo. All tests were based on a 3 hard lap distance, to replicate 3 lap supersprints. I let it cool for a couple of laps in a couple of the sessions and then did another 3 laps hard. I don't do endurance racing, so no point in keeping on it for more than 3 laps at a time for my purposes at least.

    Inlet temperatures were measured by inserting thermocouples under rubber hose joining intercooler to piping, both pre and post intercooler. This avoids placing the thermocouple into the airflow stream and recording 'web bulb' temperatures, where the probe gets wet and gives cooler than actual temperature results. I think a lot of the test results published for WMI show web bulb temperatures, making it seem like a magic cooling effect, whereas it is not. Intercooler is standard, but with large scoop and 90 mm hose fitted to direct air from RHS engine side intake, plus some work to open up restrictions in the standard roof intake ducting.

    Have a look a logging test results in attached video and then you can also look at some in car footage so you can get your head around what 3 laps of Barbagallo raceway looks like. Video shows me chasing a supercharged Audi R8 V10 when it was round 32 deg and I was trying the 500 ml/min injection rate. That Audi had some stonk and no way would I be able to stay with it on the straights, as you'd expect.

    Basically, results show that WMI is very effective in reducing and stabilising pre intercooler tempeatures on a hot dry day, with 500 ml/min injection rate resulting in pre intercooler temperature rise of only about 40 deg C above ambient, compared to 75 dec C with no WMI. However it was starting to bog down momentarily on some gearchanges with 500 ml/min injection rate, so I think that's about the limit that can be injected. 300 ml/min is sufficient for most occasions, though 500 provides some benefit on really hot dry days, not that I plan on competing too often on days like that!

    The other thing to note is how well the standard intercooler works, under some pretty severe test conditions. Even with no WMI and 28 deg ambient, the inlet temperatures were only in the low 60 deg range after 3 laps. Adding 300 ml/min and then 500 ml/min only decreased post intercooler temperatures into the mid 50 dec C range. Put another way, maximum post intercooler temperatures in terms of rise above ambient temperature were 34, 27 and 22 Dec C for no WMI, 300 ml/min and 500 ml/min WMI injection rates respectively.

    Speeds achieved were around 205 kph in 5th down the main straight hill, and 180 kph in 4th down the other two straights. Lap times were rubbish as rear tyres were completely shot! But testing was the game, not lap times, so no matter. And it's very easy and fun to slide around as it happens. Didn't miss not having LSD at all on the flowing 3rd and 4th gear corners of this track either.

    https://youtu.be/pIjThRHzNrQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai-vP0WMDng
    Last edited by 200MPH; 18-11-18 at 08:38 AM.

  24. #24
    Chopped BigMuz's Avatar
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    Good work man, that's very interesting.
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  25. #25
    Opinionated Cunt perthdrivers.txt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAZMAN View Post
    I ran wmi years ago on my supra, was able to run 30psi on 98 fuel.
    However it was a backyard tune of the system because whenever i asked a tuner they didnt want to know about it. So i myself started logging and just adding a bit of timing and adjusting fuel mixtures.
    Exactly the situation I found and probably the biggest question that needs to be answered re: W/M injection systems - who is going to tune it?

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  26. #26
    Arrogant wankeler Slides's Avatar
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    Pee Kay (you can probably contact him on facebook, bumpstart on rotary forums) is an advocate, does a fair bit of street tuning (with knock listening, then passing over to shop with a dyno) and has a good relationship with one of the tuning shops over there. Might be able to help or point you in the right direction. I think Rotormotion have done WI cars for a while?
    Last edited by Slides; 18-11-18 at 05:25 PM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by perthdrivers.txt View Post
    Exactly the situation I found and probably the biggest question that needs to be answered re: W/M injection systems - who is going to tune it?
    Do it yourself, on track, road or dry hire a dyno. That's what I do. Nothing weird about tuning it. I used the nitrous feature on my ECU. But instead of richening/regarding (as you would when nitrous activates) I leaned/advanced. Simple and good enough.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by perthdrivers.txt View Post
    Exactly the situation I found and probably the biggest question that needs to be answered re: W/M injection systems - who is going to tune it?
    Do it yourself, on track, road or dry hire a dyno. That's what I do. Nothing weird about tuning it. I used the nitrous feature on my ECU. But instead of richening/regarding (as you would when nitrous activates) I leaned/advanced. Simple and good enough.

    Or you can go full mapped wmi, just like you can for nitrous.

  29. #29
    Arrogant wankeler Slides's Avatar
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    The combustion stability offered by running water at 15% + of fuel mass means unless you run outrageous ignition advance you should be pretty safe, it is usually just making sure you have enough spark to make it work that is the problem. It has been the go to for high powered rx7s for ~15 years before e85/flex sensors became readily available.

  30. #30
    Registered User Ke26 Wagon's Avatar
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    used water meth for drag challenge this year...A+++ would bang again!!

    intake temps before burnout were 38+
    Intake temps staging 35+
    Intake temps at 60ft 24
    Intake temps at top of 1/4 30

    Really kept the intake temps stable and allows a little bit of timing and stability. Ran over 10 drags and plenty of street hits along the 3500kms and dint use more then 400ml

    using 50/50 boost juice mix with a AEM mid range nozzle post intercooler, hobbs switch, wm filter and solenoid

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