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Thread: The PF Bolt and Thread guru thread

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    no mods, leave it stock Jack Nicholson's Avatar
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    The PF Bolt and Thread guru thread

    Ok you legends, here's one for you.





    The brass gear is meant to be a direct replacement for the shitty plastic one which cracked.

    The original one spins freely on the spindle, the brass one is tight and binds up after six or seven turns.

    So it seems the thread is close, maybe not cut correctly, maybe not the right thread at all.

    Got hold of a 1/2-10 ACME tap, it goes through both of them without any binding at all, they both rock a little on the biggest part of the tap.

    The ISO trapezoidal tap in the closest size is even looser.

    Measured the ID of the original, was 11.3mm, the new brass one was a bit smaller, drilled it out with an 11.3mm bit, followed up with an 11.4mm bit just to be sure. Still binds up on the spindle.

    The shop that supplied the brass gear is not really helpful, won't tell me the thread spec, says that the spindle must be damaged, which I don't agree with, since the original gear spins freely.

    They say use lapping paste and work the new gear back & forth to grind the thread. I don't think this will work...

    Any suggestions? Or am I fucked?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Look, just because you drive a couple of imported luxo Pommy cars doesn't mean you need to act like an Imperialistic Lapdog and be the last bastion of defence for Straya The Beaut's mid-20th-Century ideals
    Quote Originally Posted by nutttr View Post
    People must assume you are some sort of drug dealer with all these nice cars turning up to a fibro home

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    Different class (2g/3g/4g/5g) acme threads is causing the binding would be my guess.

    https://www.engineersedge.com/hardwa...read_13360.htm
    Last edited by Fondles; 10-01-19 at 07:13 AM.

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    Defective Faux Forg's Avatar
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    Lapping paste will be in the brass gear forever. Don't do that.

    Off the top of my head, M13x2.5 would be close - a little bigger. Not that i've ever seen an M13x2.5 thread or tap. Do you have any thread pitch gauges?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fondles View Post
    Different class (2g/3g/4g/5g) acme threads is causing the binding would be my guess.

    https://www.engineersedge.com/hardwa...read_13360.htm
    That might be something to do with it, maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Forg View Post
    Lapping paste will be in the brass gear forever. Don't do that.

    Off the top of my head, M13x2.5 would be close - a little bigger. Not that i've ever seen an M13x2.5 thread or tap. Do you have any thread pitch gauges?
    Yeah not going to even try the lapping paste...

    Nobody i've asked has even heard of an M13x2.5, does it even exist?

    Only thread gauges I have are for regular metric threads...

    So here's where it's at.

    I can't even confirm if the original thread is really an accurate ACME 1/2-10, it's not possible to remove the spindle from the car without a massive headfuck...

    I can't find anyone in Oz who has ACME nuts on the shelf, to try putting a regular nut on the spindle to see if it is really the thread we think it might supposedly be.

    The plan now is;

    Buy some ACME 1/2-10 hex nuts and threaded rod from the US, there's a seller on eBay who has them and will ship to here.

    - Try both the new and old gears on the threaded rod, for fitment.
    - Try the hex nuts on the spindle in the car, for fitment.

    In theory the gears should spin OK on the threaded rod, but the hex nuts bind up on the spindle in the car.
    If that turns out to be, then I found another US seller who has dies in 1/2-10 ACME, so can buy one of them and re-cut the thread on the spindle to suit the gears.
    http://www.toolsavings.com/templates...oupGuid=189588

    That's the plan anyhow...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Look, just because you drive a couple of imported luxo Pommy cars doesn't mean you need to act like an Imperialistic Lapdog and be the last bastion of defence for Straya The Beaut's mid-20th-Century ideals
    Quote Originally Posted by nutttr View Post
    People must assume you are some sort of drug dealer with all these nice cars turning up to a fibro home

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    Before going to that much trouble give it all to a machine shop to sort out, you will be dollars and more importantly a lot of time ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mini View Post
    Before going to that much trouble give it all to a machine shop that knows what they are doing to sort out, you will be dollars and more importantly a lot of time ahead.
    Fixed.

    Not a cycle thread (same thread pitch no matter the size) or something English weird like that is it?

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    Ah should have mentioned that I've already been to two machine shops and gotten nowhere...

    The pedal assembly in these cars is via the Ford USA supply chain (similar units in the Crown Vic, Lincolns, etc) so it's not English.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Look, just because you drive a couple of imported luxo Pommy cars doesn't mean you need to act like an Imperialistic Lapdog and be the last bastion of defence for Straya The Beaut's mid-20th-Century ideals
    Quote Originally Posted by nutttr View Post
    People must assume you are some sort of drug dealer with all these nice cars turning up to a fibro home

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Nicholson View Post
    Nobody i've asked has even heard of an M13x2.5, does it even exist?
    It'd be an odd one for sure, but without knowing what it is, it's possible.

    You could check the male thread with the three wire method - if you like trigonometry.
    If you've got a decent digital caliper you could also measure the pitch across 10 threads (like your photo) and check if it's an inch or not. Or, put some blue on it, screw it together, and check where it's jamming.

    But before any of that, does the gear mesh properly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlin
    Chickens will slip under water in the cover of darkness like a seal team and FUCK YOU UP.

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    Pretty sure the ten thread measurement reads 25.4 on his calipers in the photo.

    Apparently there are some modified ACME threads with different thread heights, though that wouldn't explain it binding up after a few threads. Either way, ASME standard for ACME threads is attached if you want to do some reading. Appendix A shows the modified thread forms, earlier in the document gives allowable tolerances for standard threads.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Defective Faux Forg's Avatar
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    Plastic caliper should go in the bin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlin
    Chickens will slip under water in the cover of darkness like a seal team and FUCK YOU UP.

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    no mods, leave it stock Jack Nicholson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricardo View Post
    Pretty sure the ten thread measurement reads 25.4 on his calipers in the photo.

    Apparently there are some modified ACME threads with different thread heights, though that wouldn't explain it binding up after a few threads. Either way, ASME standard for ACME threads is attached if you want to do some reading. Appendix A shows the modified thread forms, earlier in the document gives allowable tolerances for standard threads.
    Thanks very much for that, i'll have a look through it sober

    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Forg View Post
    Plastic caliper should go in the bin.
    These are actually good ones https://www.wihatools.com/dial-caliper-dialmax-metric I checked them against the standards that came with my micrometers and it's as close as fuck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Look, just because you drive a couple of imported luxo Pommy cars doesn't mean you need to act like an Imperialistic Lapdog and be the last bastion of defence for Straya The Beaut's mid-20th-Century ideals
    Quote Originally Posted by nutttr View Post
    People must assume you are some sort of drug dealer with all these nice cars turning up to a fibro home

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    Down with ma homies Greg Rust's Avatar
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    If I can help with shipping anything to you please let me know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Nicholsen
    I can't find anyone in Oz who has ACME nuts on the shelf
    There was a mob in Coburg Vic who specialized in making acme thread and nuts about 10 years back, a mate bought a 6ft length from them for a lathe - can't remember the name unfortunately. Failing that, hare and forbes might have something off a cross-slide or compound that would fit? I might try Graham McDonald Services out at Girraween to see if they can see a problem with your nuts first....given limited measuring equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mini
    Before going to that much trouble give it all to a machine shop to sort out, you will be dollars and more importantly a lot of time ahead.
    Problem no doubt, he's been turned away for a piddly job.

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    You could use the taps that you have to check the thread pitch of the stud. If it is what I think it is, the thread could be stretched, which would cause the jamming you're experiencing.

    Also, if you can force the tap with a (not running) lathe/drillpress/etc as you wind it through, you might gain enough clearance for it to work, assuming it's not binding on the crest. Obviously this is rough as guts though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlin
    Chickens will slip under water in the cover of darkness like a seal team and FUCK YOU UP.

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    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Do you have access to a spare length of the shaft? It will be pretty easy to turn it into a thread chaser with an angle grinder....
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    no mods, leave it stock Jack Nicholson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Rust View Post
    Just ugga dooga it up with the rattle gun.
    I may try this with the nuts that I've ordered, assuming all other avenues are exhausted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    If I can help with shipping anything to you please let me know.
    Cheers, the nuts & threaded rod are from eBay & coming here through the global shipping program, so that's no problem.
    Could be that the supplier of the die won't ship international, so I might take you up on that offer, depends how things turn out.

    Quote Originally Posted by gxxr View Post
    There was a mob in Coburg Vic who specialized in making acme thread and nuts about 10 years back, a mate bought a 6ft length from them for a lathe - can't remember the name unfortunately. Failing that, hare and forbes might have something off a cross-slide or compound that would fit? I might try Graham McDonald Services out at Girraween to see if they can see a problem with your nuts first....given limited measuring equipment.
    The old bloke at Lee Bros said there was one mob in Victoria who had ACME threaded rod & nuts, but they were only in one size and it was an odd pitch 6 TPI or something, because it was being used in some specific machinery.

    I was at Graham McDonalds on Wednesday, we tried the taps they had one the shelf, they didn't have any dies though.

    If i'm going past Hare & Forbes i'll stop in and have a look.

    Quote Originally Posted by gxxr View Post
    Problem no doubt, he's been turned away for a piddly job.
    Yeah this is a headfuck no-one want's to take on it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Forg View Post
    You could use the taps that you have to check the thread pitch of the stud. If it is what I think it is, the thread could be stretched, which would cause the jamming you're experiencing.
    I don't have a tap in my possession, because $200

    Also the taps were pretty loose in both the original and the new gears, so it did not appear that they would be of any help.

    EDIT the stretching crossed by mind, but seems kind of doubtful, it's a little pissy electric motor driving this gear via a cable & worm gear. Also it's steel, pretty tough, and if it was stretched you'd expect the original gear to be jamming up on it too, but it spins freely...

    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Forg View Post
    Also, if you can force the tap with a (not running) lathe/drillpress/etc as you wind it through, you might gain enough clearance for it to work, assuming it's not binding on the crest. Obviously this is rough as guts though.
    You mean put some lateral load on it, like making a hole bigger with a drill by wiggling it around? Maybe, but that would mean buying a $200 tap...

    For now I just have to wait until the nuts and rod turn up, and then I have some "gauges" to play with.
    Last edited by Jack Nicholson; 11-01-19 at 08:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Look, just because you drive a couple of imported luxo Pommy cars doesn't mean you need to act like an Imperialistic Lapdog and be the last bastion of defence for Straya The Beaut's mid-20th-Century ideals
    Quote Originally Posted by nutttr View Post
    People must assume you are some sort of drug dealer with all these nice cars turning up to a fibro home

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    no mods, leave it stock Jack Nicholson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    Do you have access to a spare length of the shaft? It will be pretty easy to turn it into a thread chaser with an angle grinder....
    Unless I can pull a pedal box out of a wreck for less than a carton, then no, have only got the one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Look, just because you drive a couple of imported luxo Pommy cars doesn't mean you need to act like an Imperialistic Lapdog and be the last bastion of defence for Straya The Beaut's mid-20th-Century ideals
    Quote Originally Posted by nutttr View Post
    People must assume you are some sort of drug dealer with all these nice cars turning up to a fibro home

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    Why donít you remove the plastic from the centre, drill out the brass gear and press fit the centre of the old gear into the new gear?

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    Just another idea, Mick Moyles at Summer Hill might be another possibility. It's an Aladdin's Cave of shit, bordering on hoarding, but lots of obscure bits and pieces which might include nuts.

    If I was going to modify the gear, you'd have to make a fixture or make soft jaws to hold it to avoid damaging the brass in the chuck. Part of the machining issue, will be the need to buy inserts for most people.....not all that common a requirement and they'll sit on the shelf forever waiting for the next use - or single point grind some hss.

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    Alright my threaded rod and nuts arrived from the US....



    Unsurprisingly the original gear is a bit loose on the rod. The new brass gear is a bit tighter, but moves ok if not with a little chatter. The nut feels about the same a the brass gear.

    I cannot get the new nut onto the original spindle more than a half turn, it binds up even worse than the brass gear.



    So, options now...

    Buy that die for $100 USD + $??? shipping, and recut the thread on the spindle....

    Or what are the chances of making a die or dies out of these nuts?
    Jaguar XJR, Freelander 2 HSE, Jaguar XKR

    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Look, just because you drive a couple of imported luxo Pommy cars doesn't mean you need to act like an Imperialistic Lapdog and be the last bastion of defence for Straya The Beaut's mid-20th-Century ideals
    Quote Originally Posted by nutttr View Post
    People must assume you are some sort of drug dealer with all these nice cars turning up to a fibro home

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    Down with ma homies Greg Rust's Avatar
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    Get a thread gauge and measure them.
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    I'd seriously look at stripping the black plastic off the steel insert and machining the brass thread out. Hell, if i could actually use my lathe at the moment, I'd offer to do it for you.
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    The PF Bolt and Thread guru thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Rust View Post
    Get a thread gauge and measure them.
    Without trying to sound like a smart-arse, what is a thread gauge going to tell me that I don't already know?

    The thread is clearly not a common off-the-shelf standard, these rod and nuts are a standard, and the closest one there is to it.

    Modifying the thread on the spindle to a standard thread with a standard die is going to be a lot easier and cheaper than "custom".

    Or am I missing something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    I'd seriously look at stripping the black plastic off the steel insert and machining the brass thread out. Hell, if i could actually use my lathe at the moment, I'd offer to do it for you.
    Appreciate that but the problem is I have three of these cars to do; my own and two customers, and probably more in the future. That's why i have three brass gears here.

    Whatever the solution is, it needs to work quickly on the next two. Removing the original gear and re-working it outside somewhere each time is not really practical for the next two cars...

    But what about making a couple of the nuts into dies? Looks like a few holes milled in the nut, a tapered grind on one side, harden them, and it might work?

    Looking at my other dies, it seems kind of doable, but I have my doubts since the nut is kinda loose on the rod...


    Last edited by Jack Nicholson; 22-01-19 at 12:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Look, just because you drive a couple of imported luxo Pommy cars doesn't mean you need to act like an Imperialistic Lapdog and be the last bastion of defence for Straya The Beaut's mid-20th-Century ideals
    Quote Originally Posted by nutttr View Post
    People must assume you are some sort of drug dealer with all these nice cars turning up to a fibro home

  26. #26
    Registered User GSRman's Avatar
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    I bet the depth of the thread is non-standard.. although running the 11.4mm through it 'should' have fixed that - unless it's galled it up..

    also looks like the outer edge of the thread is thicker on the car? in which case nothing you can fucking do.. except put it in a lathe and re-cut it..

    can you buy the part from another car? enough that you can find a hobby machinist that could make you nuts?
    This is a post i wrote by mistake, which is nice...

  27. #27
    Chopped BigMuz's Avatar
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    Normally you need the make part to make the female part. The difference between going on half a nut and sloppy as hell is a couple of tenths Max. Can you find someone with a lathe to scratch it a bit deeper? It's a pretty simple job.
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    OK so might have a bit of a breakthrough on this. Stopped in an another machinist (guy who did some work for me a few years ago) and explained/showed him the problem.

    There is ACME thread, then there is Stub ACME thread. Seems likely that the spindle in the car could be a Stub ACME thread.
    He pretty much told me to eat a dick when I asked if he could cut me a female Stub ACME thread in 1/2"-10 though...

    Stub ACME being the same pitch, same 29deg, but the depth of the threads is shallower. So you can screw a Stub ACME nut onto regular ACME male thread, but not vice-versa.

    Looking at the ACME threaded rod I bought in, compared to the spindle in the car, yeah the threads on the ACME rod are much deeper, even just by looking at them.

    In theory, you could run an ACME die over the Stub ACME thread and cut them a bit deeper. Which is where i'm at now...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Look, just because you drive a couple of imported luxo Pommy cars doesn't mean you need to act like an Imperialistic Lapdog and be the last bastion of defence for Straya The Beaut's mid-20th-Century ideals
    Quote Originally Posted by nutttr View Post
    People must assume you are some sort of drug dealer with all these nice cars turning up to a fibro home

  29. #29
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    So different minor and major diametres... kinda what I mentioned in my previous post.

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    The PF Bolt and Thread guru thread

    Finally...

    My 1/2-10 ACME die arrived from the USA



    Made in fucking China of course...

    Had to get a 27mm deep socket...



    But it recut the thread on the spindle and the brass gear spins freely on it now.



    Because the die is symmetrical, thread can be started on either side, I couldn't cut the last few mm of the thread on the spindle, but that's about as good as it's gonna get...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Look, just because you drive a couple of imported luxo Pommy cars doesn't mean you need to act like an Imperialistic Lapdog and be the last bastion of defence for Straya The Beaut's mid-20th-Century ideals
    Quote Originally Posted by nutttr View Post
    People must assume you are some sort of drug dealer with all these nice cars turning up to a fibro home

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