Babalouie's 911 - start on p7

[Beavis]

Babs, have you driven a 911SC? Or a Carrera? Or a 996? If so how do they compare to the 964?

[Babalouie]

Babs, have you driven a 911SC? Or a Carrera? Or a 996? If so how do they compare to the 964?

Haven't driven a water-cooled 911 yet, but have driven the older air cooled ones.

Dad had a 911SC, and at first, it has a lot in common with the 964. Same solid bank-vault feel, nose feels light and bobs around, weird, floor hinged pedals etc. Biggest difference would be the 915 gearbox, which we all harp on about, but it really is an acquired taste. It's totally different to a normal notchy gearbox, in that the "notch" comes right at the end of the shift, and across the gate, it's actually very loose and flooppy. So the first time you drive one, you'll think it's broken :D And it'll take a few hours to get used to it. Other differences to 964 are that the interior is much more basic, the a/c isn't very cold and the demisting and heater is very confusing (with 3 sets of controls on the dash, console and behind the handbrake...none of which actually do much). Handling is much less planted, with more initial understeer and more eventual oversteer, and the brakes make locking up an inside front wheel quite easy in the wet. But apart from all that, the feel is quite similar.

Carrera 3.2 feels heavier than 911SC (which it is, by 70kg) and if it's got a G50 gearbox (post 1986) then it'll have a very conventional-feeling, if heavy shift. 3.2s are taller geared than SCs, so tend to feel slower, even though they aren't really. SCs have a very cammy feel in comparison, so tend to feel a bit more lively. Apart from that, I'd say that the 3.2 and SC feel very similar, with the exception that the later 3.2s seem to have rationalised the HVAC a bit, and it works better and is easier to use, and I reckon they padded out the 3.2 more with sound deadening than the SC had, so it's a little more refined. Handling-wise, they feel a bit heavier and softer than the SC, which may have something to do with having more rubber on the ground.

If you jump out of an earlier car into a 964, the first thing you notice is that it's a lot more modern and refined. The impact bumper cars are very raw, so the gearbox/diff/clutch makes all sorts of coffee-grinder and whining noises, the steering wiggles in your hands and there is a lot of road noise. Relatively speaking, the 964 wipes a lot of this out, and is more like a normal early 90s car in terms of its refinement (mind you, you can reverse all of these advances by fitting the solid RS engine and trans mounts like I did). Handling and power wise, it's all a step up in the 964, and it's a lot less threatening to drive, esp with ABS brakes and power steering, which the impact bumper cars don't have.

I'd say that a 1989 Carrera 3.2 tends to feel like a 70s car, where the 964 suddenly caught up and feels more like an NSX rival would. But the difference between a 1978 911SC and a 1992 964 isn't anywhere near as big as say, from a S1 RX-7 to an FD.

[clutch-monkey]

good summary babs
imo the 996 is another jump again like the 964 is to the SC, but i find personal preference enters into it a bit more than when comparing the two air cooled cars - some just won't like the 996!

[spiller]

So clearly the reason why people love the air cooled cars so much isn't merely because of the motors? Is the 993 a big jump up from the 964 in refinement?

[Babalouie]

So clearly the reason why people love the air cooled cars so much isn't merely because of the motors? Is the 993 a big jump up from the 964 in refinement?

Not really, 993 and 964 pretty much are the same to drive.

I think ppl who love the air-cooled 911s prefer the idiosyncracies of the older cars, plus the character. For example, the older cars have this really heavy, solid THUNK when you slam the door, whereas the new watercooled ones have frameless doors, so it's more of a lighter/rattly thing going on. The newer ones also don't see to have that built-for-ever feeling, with switches that go shiny and colour that rubs off the vinyl etc. Then the older ones tend to be more raw and less refined, the air cooled ones have heavier steering and brakes etc

[clutch-monkey]

So clearly the reason why people love the air cooled cars so much isn't merely because of the motors? Is the 993 a big jump up from the 964 in refinement?

what babs said, and some people will always prefer the classic cars, some can't live without the modern.

[itsnotagsr]

I think there is a certain "last of" cache to the 993s as well. People like to think after 40 odd years they finally got the aircooled cars right by that stage.

Some day collectors might have a view of the 996s being the "first of" cars, particularly successes such as the GT series.

[Babalouie]

Absolutely, every generation of 911 eventually will have its day. Until a few years ago, this was the 964, so eventually there will come a time when 996s become cool...might take a while tho

[itsnotagsr]

Apart from 996s, I think 80s cars are still underrated. Good power, reliable, cheap parts and comparatively affordable.

When it comes to 996s, I think someone will come up with a body kit or something that will make them appreciated. Same goes for Boxsters. Perhaps LS1 conversions?

[Beavis]

Haven't driven a water-cooled 911 yet, but have driven the older air cooled ones. (snip)

Thanks mate. The reason I ask is I still really want to pull the trigger on one, but up here what complicates things (the queen doth protest too much!) is that you can pay the same amount of money for essentially any of them. For $20k, you can get a mint 911SC, a nice Carrera, a nice 964 or a nice 996. (993s are still big money; as is anything turbo).

The first memory I have of a Porka is an SC, but I've never driven one. I've driven a left-hook 964 when I was in Perth, but it was my first time driving LHD and I was petrified. I've driven a handful of 996s and like them, but it's not "the same". Of course they're faster, handle better, are more comfortable and probably more reliable (IMS aside..) due to their lack of age. But, like I said, not "the same".

What gets me is that the price only goes up in smallish increments, but you think "Well, if I spend $12k, I might as well spend 15..." and then 15 can turn into 18 which can turn into 20. Quantifying what you get in those increments is hard for me to fathom.

What I do want is something to fang that's not going to be a truckload of work to get sorted (like my El Camino is). When I want a real project Porka, I'll get a late 60s/early 70s and go to town. And leave my wallet behind, I suspect..

[itsnotagsr]

Drive all of them and then give no fark for what internet lunchtime legends say?

[clutch-monkey]

Thanks mate. The reason I ask is I still really want to pull the trigger on one, but up here what complicates things (the queen doth protest too much!) is that you can pay the same amount of money for essentially any of them. For $20k, you can get a mint 911SC, a nice Carrera, a nice 964 or a nice 996. (993s are still big money; as is anything turbo).

for 20k you could buy all three and probably not be much more out of pocket than some of us :knock:
imo that SC you linked for 14k in the other thread.. if it passes inspection, buy it and if you don't like it flick it on; someone else will snap it up off you if so.
though i suspect you could find a 3.0L for not much more.. shit, i see what you mean

[Stix Zadinia]

if these prices are so cheap, it makes buying stuff like secondhand engines and gearboxes from the states appealing!

[Beavis]

Drive all of them and then give no fark for what internet lunchtime legends say?

The problem is, where I live right now anything other than 996s are thin on the ground. And some of the 996s are crap examples.

for 20k you could buy all three and probably not be much more out of pocket than some of us :knock:
imo that SC you linked for 14k in the other thread.. if it passes inspection, buy it and if you don't like it flick it on; someone else will snap it up off you if so.
though i suspect you could find a 3.0L for not much more.. shit, i see what you mean

Yeah, to be honest I feel like a bit of a cunt having this for a problem. The thing is though, you can still spend $20k or even $30k (or $40k!) on an SC if you feel the need. And if you get a special Carrera or 964 RS America then you can spend equally silly money. Get into the early 911S stuff and $40k becomes chump change...

if these prices are so cheap, it makes buying stuff like secondhand engines and gearboxes from the states appealing!

The odd thing is that engine & transaxle prices still seem pretty freaking high. Though, outside of 2.7L stuff, I haven't looked that hard.

[Marty]

The kids I haul to Saturday sport are 8 and 5, and they both fit into the 964 easily (esp since it doesn't have a passenger airbag, so my 5yr old can sit in a booster in the front).

But they drag shit into the car with their footy boots, so I take them in the Tarago instead :D

Lol, but your kids are tiny