GM faces rapid collapse without aid

[perthdrivers.txt]

You're still missing the point "CHEAP", yes BMW have the M5, but they're not going to drop the price down to $40,000 to fill the void left by Holden and Ford when they can sell everyone allocated to Australia for $220,000, neither will MB.

And don't say "oh the 4 door Skyline" because that isn't filling the void of V8 powered, spacious, 4 door sedan that can two 2400kg's.

hang on a minute - the only reason the ford/holden product is cheap is because there are all kinds of economies in being locally built, in addition to not having import tariffs to worry about.

there is no question the market would look very different if the commodore was a fully imported vehicle.

As far as engines go, the XR6T has proved you dont have to have a V8 for anything other than sound...

[Captain_Slow]

I dont understand your logic - are you trying to say that if Ford and Holden were to disappear tomorrow no other manufacturer would step in to fill the void in that market segment?

Who'd be capable? Luxury car makers aren't going to rush downmarket to fill a void at $40-60k and I'm not seeing too many other manufacturers with big RWD platforms on the go or a relatively low-cost V8 engine that would suit.

How do you know this? Almost every major manufacturer already has a car more than capable, we never see them because with the market size and tariffs, etc its just not *currently* viable to bring them over

Such as? What could Toyota, Nissan, the Fiat Group or VW offer me that would do the same job as my SS for around the same money? The only car that could arguably stand a chance would be some sort of performance version of the Hyundai Genesis, if they ever build one.

[kabab]

I just can't see them letting the big 3 die it would cripple America, i think they are just talking tough for show....

[23Kev]

I can't believe some of you guys that are saying that the US govt should let the big 3 fail and go under. Sure the money they are talking is huge and we all know its a combination of very bad management and the unions that have caused this....but for fucks sake, we are a bunch of car heads. We should be doing anything and everything we can to support the manufacture and design of any and all cars, no matter how crap they might be...

The number of people affected by the closure of these companies would be absolutely massive, many millions no doubt. Especially when you take into account all of the other industries that rely on people spending money on cars and everything thats required to support them. I know americans would just buy other cars but there is no doubt that it would affect a metric (maybe imperial actually) shitload of people.

Also...

What would we all do if CussCuss couldn't bang on about how good the ZR1 is, or sturmovik couldn't link us to some stupid yank mustang site...PF would only have two threads a day! :D

[Buck Nasty]

hang on a minute - the only reason the ford/holden product is cheap is because there are all kinds of economies in being locally built, in addition to not having import tariffs to worry about.

Tariffs do nothing to help the Australian car industry (currently at 10%), and 60% of the dunnydore comprises of imported parts. Look at Holden, 90% of their range are Daewoos, the new Barina is going for $14,000 driveaway!! they couldn't think of building it here for less.

Simple fact is, there isn't a car on the planet that could replace the Commodore or Falcon on price, options, power and size, it's that simple.

[Inept]

If GM and Ford leave a void in the market someone will fill it.

[1uz-zte]

If GM and Ford leave a void in the market someone will fill it.

Yea.. Hyundai. That's a sick, twisted future that scares me

[Inept]

Yea.. Hyundai. That's a sick, twisted future that scares me

Are you doubting Hyundai can build a poorly engineered/built large car with a truck engine?

[Captain_Slow]

Putting aside your woefully inaccurate poorly engineered/built comment, you're not far off the money with the truck engine one. GM's V8 costs so little, relatively speaking, because it goes into many thousands of trucks a year in one form or another (as well as a fair few cars, obviously). You'd probably have to get into that market to get any sort of decent economies of scale out of a V8 engine design these days.

Other than GM, Ford and Chrysler, does anyone sell a V8 engine in large numbers?

[Rezz]

Fuckin...

VK prices are gonna go through the roof!

[1uz-zte]

Are you doubting Hyundai can build a poorly engineered/built large car with a truck engine?

Heh.. absolutely, all they build is poorly engineered, large cars, with boat engines :rotflol:




No really... I've been in a few Hyundais, and sure they weren't too bad, but they felt four times older than they were, but surely the US cars aren't that bad... right?

[Buck Nasty]

If GM and Ford leave a void in the market someone will fill it.

Fuck me, did you even read this thread before posting? you couldn't even be bothered reading the post above yours (mine) which would've stoped you posting this pathetic dribble. It's not fucking viable for someone else to fill the void, they would have to start from scratch to sell a handful of cars in one country.

Are you doubting Hyundai can build a poorly engineered/built large car with a truck engine?

Ever been to America? thought not, when you've driven one of their pieces of shit across 7 states, then see if you still want to make the same remark (I mean calling Aus made cars poorly engineered). Sure the Falcon and Commodore have nothing on a 5 series, or E class, but what did Mercedes spend on the E class? $4 billion? now I'm no expert in maths, but thats 4 times what Holden spent on the new VE ($1 billion), and nearly 6 times what Ford spent on the Falcon ($700 million) and the Falcon is definitely not 6 times worst than an E class! infact you could guarantee it's not even twice as bad.

[jambo]

Sure the Falcon and Commodore have nothing on a 5 series, or E class, but what did Mercedes spend on the E class? $4 billion? now I'm no expert in maths, but thats 4 times what Holden spent on the new VE ($1 billion), and nearly 6 times what Ford spent on the Falcon ($700 million) and the Falcon is definitely not 6 times worst than an E class! infact you could guarantee it's not even twice as bad.

This is the kind of maths I've been using in my head as well. Spending a lot of time in foreign countries really makes you appreciate our domestic market and how competitively they are priced while we get reamed by all of the imported marques.

America's industry is in trouble because euro and jap models are just so damn competitively priced

USA
Pontiac G8 GT: $30,000
BMW 550i: $59,500 (2x dearer)

Aus
Commodore SS: $45,000
BMW 550i: $170,000 (3.8x dearer)

I fear Australia would be in a lot more trouble finding a viable replacement in that market segment than the USA.

[Peter...]

This is the kind of maths I've been using in my head as well. Spending a lot of time in foreign countries really makes you appreciate our domestic market and how competitively they are priced while we get reamed by all of the imported marques.

America's industry is in trouble because euro and jap models are just so damn competitively priced

USA
Pontiac G8 GT: $30,000
BMW 550i: $59,500 (2x dearer)

Aus
Commodore SS: $45,000
BMW 550i: $170,000 (3.8x dearer)

I fear Australia would be in a lot more trouble finding a viable replacement in that market segment than the USA.

Is a 550 really 170g? FUCK! That's crack prices.

[Banzai]

USA
Pontiac G8 GT: $30,000
BMW 550i: $59,500 (2x dearer)

Aus
Commodore SS: $45,000
BMW 550i: $170,000 (3.8x dearer)

And that is a perfect example of how badge snobs in this country let Euro car manufacturers, especially the German ones, rip us off so badly.

While I personally will never be in the market for anything as big as a Falcon or Commodore, I agree that they are reasonably well engineered and made by world standards. You are probably only looking at the Germans, Japs and Swedes for better quality.