Queensland Traffic Act - Inspecting cars on trailers and other things

[VHSS]

looking at legislation a bit closer, I figure they can defect a registered vehicle on trailer. A registered vehicle must comply with VSS, whether it's being driven or not.
However, they would not be able to issue an infringement for a defective vehicle, because it wasn't being driven or parked on a road.,

and they could in theory defect a crashed or broken down car that is being towed on a trailer in the same way.

[Billzilla]

looking at legislation a bit closer, I figure they can defect a registered vehicle on trailer. A registered vehicle must comply with VSS, whether it's being driven or not.
However, they would not be able to issue an infringement for a defective vehicle, because it wasn't being driven or parked on a road.,

and they could in theory defect a crashed or broken down car that is being towed on a trailer in the same way.

Yep that's what certainly seems to be the case.
Still pretty rough getting defects on a car on a trailer though.

[VHSS]

Yep that's what certainly seems to be the case.
Still pretty rough getting defects on a car on a trailer though.

I agree
I mean if a car had a massive blower hanging out of the bonnet maybe, because obviously the car would never be legal on the road
But as someone else pointed out, fit a set of slicks on an otherwise roadworthy car and trailer it so you can go and have some legal fun at the track and you can get defected for it...

Hopefully most cops would have enough common sense to avoid these situations

[clutch-monkey]

However, they would not be able to issue an infringement for a defective vehicle, because it wasn't being driven or parked on a road.,

this was pretty much the response from a cop friend of mine, when i asked about a track car defected on someone's property etc etc.
i don't know if that's the law or just the approach they personally take though, because in the following sentence they referred to traffic cops as "dickless fuck puppets, not real police" haha

[Dave75]

At Mallala, the police can book you anywhere between the main entrance gates on Aerodrome Road & the toilet block/ Documentation Office before you get to the Paddock/Garage area for driving an unregistered vehicle / " unroadworthy " registered vehicle.

Even Pit bikes / golf carts are not allowed past that invisible line adjacent to the Toilet Block

Competitors who drive out to the Main Gate to cool down brakes can be booked by an over zealous cop.

[theblacktexta]

Don't have time to spend the necessary hour or so looking at the various acts but, as to issue of defecting a (registered) car which is on a trailer, isnt it as simple as this :

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/q...010759/s5.html

I.e. A person must not drive or park, or permit someone else to drive or park, a vehicle on a road—

(a) unless— blah blah conforms with all standards etc...and blah blah blah if you do you get a defect notice.

So, if you or someone else is not driving it or parking it then how can there be an offence and therefore a defect notice issued?

Like all legislation however you have to look at the Act's (or Regs) dictionary. The only thing that might come close is the definition of "drive" within the dictionary which says "drive includes be in control of." Being in control of is not defined but generally speaking that can mean being in possession of - like you are "in control of" a car for drink driving purposes if you are sleeping in the front seat with the keys in your pocket.

It is bit ambiguous though so by looking at statutory interpretation principles - see Acts Interpretation Act, you look at the other wording within the section and indeed within the collateral legislation for similar provisions. Here, the words "drive or park ...a vehicle on the road" are helpful in that if the car is on the back of a trailer, whether or you are in control of it or not (per an extended or stretched definition of "drive" under the dictionary), it most certainly isnt "on" the road.

Also, if you have a look at s11 of the TORUM Vehicle Registration Regs which really is the "trigger" legislation for the Vehicle Standards and Safety Regs above, it says this:

"A person must not use, or permit to be used, on a road a vehicle that is not a registered vehicle unless" blah blah blah
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/q...10725/s11.html

You go to the definition of "use" again in the dictionary to those regs and you get this :

"use, of a vehicle on a road, includes standing the vehicle on the road". This I think adds weight to the above proposition that the car needs to be "on" the road vis a vis "on" a trailer.

So, it would seem to me that there is no offence for having a registered car on a trailer that might be defective because it is not being "used", "driven", or "parked" or "on" the road. And even if there might be an argument that you do because of the extended definition of "drive" - i.e. being in control of it, I think proper statutory construction would read that down to still mean the car needs to be on the road.

[myliberty]

BAM. Fucking lawyered.

[Greg Rust]

I think I speak for most here and think we should get Blacktexta on the PF payroll.

Champion.

I reckon you blokes should print a copy of that legislation and keep it in your glovebox.

[VHSS]

Don't have time to spend the necessary hour or so looking at the various acts but, as to issue of defecting a (registered) car which is on a trailer, isnt it as simple as this :

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/q...010759/s5.html

I.e. A person must not drive or park, or permit someone else to drive or park, a vehicle on a road—

(a) unless— blah blah conforms with all standards etc...and blah blah blah if you do you get a defect notice.

So, if you or someone else is not driving it or parking it then how can there be an offence and therefore a defect notice issued?

Like all legislation however you have to look at the Act's (or Regs) dictionary. The only thing that might come close is the definition of "drive" within the dictionary which says "drive includes be in control of." Being in control of is not defined but generally speaking that can mean being in possession of - like you are "in control of" a car for drink driving purposes if you are sleeping in the front seat with the keys in your pocket.

It is bit ambiguous though so by looking at statutory interpretation principles - see Acts Interpretation Act, you look at the other wording within the section and indeed within the collateral legislation for similar provisions. Here, the words "drive or park ...a vehicle on the road" are helpful in that if the car is on the back of a trailer, whether or you are in control of it or not (per an extended or stretched definition of "drive" under the dictionary), it most certainly isnt "on" the road.

Also, if you have a look at s11 of the TORUM Vehicle Registration Regs which really is the "trigger" legislation for the Vehicle Standards and Safety Regs above, it says this:

"A person must not use, or permit to be used, on a road a vehicle that is not a registered vehicle unless" blah blah blah
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/q...10725/s11.html

You go to the definition of "use" again in the dictionary to those regs and you get this :

"use, of a vehicle on a road, includes standing the vehicle on the road". This I think adds weight to the above proposition that the car needs to be "on" the road vis a vis "on" a trailer.

So, it would seem to me that there is no offence for having a registered car on a trailer that might be defective because it is not being "used", "driven", or "parked" or "on" the road. And even if there might be an argument that you do because of the extended definition of "drive" - i.e. being in control of it, I think proper statutory construction would read that down to still mean the car needs to be on the road.

you are correct that legislation is tricky. Consider this..

true there is no 'offense' committed for having a defective registered vehicle on a trailer, so you cannot be issued an infringement
however.....
that doesn't prevent an officer writing the vehicle a defect notice... A defective vehicle is a defective vehicle, doesn't need to be driven, parked etc to be defective. If it's registered it must comply with VSS

[zooki]

No, that's not on the road. You can drive (or tow it) there in legal, roadworthy state and then put the slicks on and dump the exhaust at the track no problem whatsoever.
But I doubt you'd have a problem with it on a trailer either, unless you were being a smart arse, or doing something stupid when you get pulled over...
How many people have had this problem? I've been involved in motorsport for a fair while now and have never heard of anyone towing a rego'd track car being defected on the trailer.

First hand story.
For a while police would setup down the bottom of the range form a large 4wd park in Qld and defect people leaving.
Then people used to start doing similar, trailering otherwise legal 4wd's fitted with tyres that were too big.
So then they started on those.

A mate was pulled over (I was in the car) towing his Patrol and directed to drive down a slope so they could have a chat, not wanting to risk going down the slope and getting stuck with a (legal) 4.5t trailer attached he told him the patrol wasn't registered, the officer replied with "Really? they let you run around up there with no rego? that's crazy! Well I guess you are no use to us then, have a good day off you go.

No RBT, no licence check, didn't even ask his name.

So there was no defect and I don't know anyone personally that has been defected (or fined) in the same situation but I think that's close enough to assume that's what they intended doing.

[260BC]

I agree with myliberty. The intentions of the laws are clear. A few of you seem to believe that by identifying extremely rare situations that create an ambiguous grey area or loophole will somehow legitimise the fact that what you are doing with your car is not wanted by the government. Even if you somehow find an actual loophole to exploit, that does not mean that in all other circumstances you will be in the right for driving a modified car on the road.

My cars are all illegally modified and I regularly break the road rules. I know that what I do is wrong and unwanted. I know I am the kind of person they are talking about when the media mentions the word "hoon". Some of you seem to think that you are better than people like me and are so desperate to try and legitimise your car and driving choices. But you're not any better, you know. You're just in denial. A Hyundai Excel can break the speed limit and commit hoon offenses just as well as a modded sports car. You mod cars to handle better and for more power. "Oh but it's much safer to have better performance in the event of an emergency!" Yea right. Who do you think you're fooling? If you can't drive a stock sports car without mods at the legal road limits we have in Australia, then there's something wrong with you. The cops know too. They know what you get up to from time to time when they aren't looking. You want to drive around like you are part of some cool dude, better than everyone else performance racing group, but swear up and down til you're blue in the face about how legal you are and justify that you are an "enthusiast" instead of a hoon.There is no distinction, not to anyone that matters anyway. "Oh well I don't go on any of those gay little mountain runs like some of those hoons, I just enjoy the odd blat at the traffic light or morning drive alone, I'm an enthusiast". Get real.

I think that myliberty is 100% right. You have two choices if you want to be legal and legitimate: trailer an unrego'd race car to sanctioned events; or drive a well maintained and stock standard vehicle to the best of your abilities within the road rules as known to you. The third option is to reject the rules, accept that there will be consequences when you are caught and revel in your time, exploit every loophole you can find and stay away from cops.

I don't know what you think you can accomplish with this thread, to be honest. The laws will just get more comprehensive and the police will get access to better and better technology to enforce them. There's been a line drawn in the sand. A lot of you have been skirting around it for ages because of loose laws and an inability to enforce them. Those days are done. So you're going to have man up and pick a side.

On top of your usual crap you are now apparently some sort of legal expert delivering a definitive legal opinion. Give us a break.

[260BC]

you are correct that legislation is tricky. Consider this..

true there is no 'offense' committed for having a defective registered vehicle on a trailer, so you cannot be issued an infringement
however.....
that doesn't prevent an officer writing the vehicle a defect notice... A defective vehicle is a defective vehicle, doesn't need to be driven, parked etc to be defective. If it's registered it must comply with VSS

Go back and read and understand what T wrote. And the question concerns the validity of a defect notice, not if someone wrote one.

[Billzilla]

Don't have time to spend the necessary hour or so looking at the various acts but, as to issue of defecting a (registered) car which is on a trailer, isnt it as simple as this :

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/q...010759/s5.html

I.e. A person must not drive or park, or permit someone else to drive or park, a vehicle on a road—

(a) unless— blah blah conforms with all standards etc...and blah blah blah if you do you get a defect notice.

So, if you or someone else is not driving it or parking it then how can there be an offence and therefore a defect notice issued?

Like all legislation however you have to look at the Act's (or Regs) dictionary. The only thing that might come close is the definition of "drive" within the dictionary which says "drive includes be in control of." Being in control of is not defined but generally speaking that can mean being in possession of - like you are "in control of" a car for drink driving purposes if you are sleeping in the front seat with the keys in your pocket.

It is bit ambiguous though so by looking at statutory interpretation principles - see Acts Interpretation Act, you look at the other wording within the section and indeed within the collateral legislation for similar provisions. Here, the words "drive or park ...a vehicle on the road" are helpful in that if the car is on the back of a trailer, whether or you are in control of it or not (per an extended or stretched definition of "drive" under the dictionary), it most certainly isnt "on" the road.

Also, if you have a look at s11 of the TORUM Vehicle Registration Regs which really is the "trigger" legislation for the Vehicle Standards and Safety Regs above, it says this:

"A person must not use, or permit to be used, on a road a vehicle that is not a registered vehicle unless" blah blah blah
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/q...10725/s11.html

You go to the definition of "use" again in the dictionary to those regs and you get this :

"use, of a vehicle on a road, includes standing the vehicle on the road". This I think adds weight to the above proposition that the car needs to be "on" the road vis a vis "on" a trailer.

So, it would seem to me that there is no offence for having a registered car on a trailer that might be defective because it is not being "used", "driven", or "parked" or "on" the road. And even if there might be an argument that you do because of the extended definition of "drive" - i.e. being in control of it, I think proper statutory construction would read that down to still mean the car needs to be on the road.

Bloody good work, thanks for that.
I tried to find all the relevant info but it's a bit here and a bit here, etc. I'm used to doing that with the aviation regs but the car ones are even worse.

[VHSS]

Go back and read and understand what T wrote. And the question concerns the validity of a defect notice, not if someone wrote one.

I have read and understood it , what do you think I missed ? Read below

So, it would seem to me that there is no offence for having a registered car on a trailer that might be defective because it is not being "used", "driven", or "parked" or "on" the road. And even if there might be an argument that you do because of the extended definition of "drive" - i.e. being in control of it, I think proper statutory construction would read that down to still mean the car needs to be on the road.

blacktexta was referring to an offence... I'm not sure what your understanding of the law is, but I can assure you the terms, 'offence' and 'defect' are 2 entirely different things. A defect is not an offence, however driving or parking a vehicle on a road with a defect may be considered an offence. Defect notices are issued under section 8(2) of VSS. Section 8(2) does not state that the vehicle has to be driven or parked on the road. It states 'if a vehicle is defective'. No condition that the vehicle must be driven/parked on the road. And before anyone misreads part (b), note it refers to a vehicle that is not defective.

8 Defect notices
(1) Subsection (2) applies if an authorised officer reasonably believes—
(a) that a vehicle is defective; or
(b) that a vehicle is not defective, but that driving or parking
it on a road would, for another reason, be in contravention of section 5.
(2) The authorised officer may,
by notice in the approved form (a defect notice), require the owner of the vehicle to take stated reasonable action to ensure that the vehicle is not defective OR that driving or parking it on a road would not, for another reason, be in contravention of section 5.

defective vehicle is defined at considerable length in section 7 of VSS. Once again no mention of a requirement for the vehicle to be on a road.

I could have missed something, but I can't find anything in relevant legislation which indicates that a vehicle must be on a road before a defect notice can be issued. Of course it would be expected that an officer would use common sense before issuing a defect to a car on a trailer, which unfortunately it seems can't be relied upon....

[TurbostyleR]

No you can't illegally modify your registered street car and turn it into a racecar and still expect to have rego. Which is their whole reasoning behind it.

Sorry I was ambiguous and you missed my point.

What I meant to say was, you can't have a registered car and modify it illegally for the specific racetrack use for one day, and tow it, then change it back to legal when you get home.