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Holden Gone by 2017 - Is the Australian Media Killing our Car Industry

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    Originally posted by Marco_VESS View Post

    So let's play CEO.
    First thing I would do is grab the CEO of Ford and Toyots and tell, not ask, the idiot Government that we aren't playing the Australian ADR game anymore that costs us a fortune to adhere to and prevents us from being competitive on the International markets. American or Euro standards are as high if not higher, we'll use those standards thank you.

    ADR's uniqueness and the Governments egotistical "We'll do it our way" have been hurting the industry since the 70's and to further the point, not just the auto industry either.

    Comment


      chances of them pikcing up UNECE is slim

      its all about bureacratic job creation
      Originally posted by boxxx

      Deutsche Bahn Rail: Trains are a great way to get lots of people concentrated into a small area, like a camp.
      ACA/TT: Where's the line between a car enthusiast and hoon? There is none

      Comment


        Originally posted by yohoes View Post

        I realise that the fleet/base models subsidise the performance models...
        Just on this... Couple of nights back listening to the ABC motoring segment the journo mentioned that compared to days gone by sales reps (etc) who would have had a choice of Holden/Ford/Toyota/Mitsubishi station wagons (which was then cut down to just the Falcodore wagon with the demise of the Magna and discontinuation of Camel wagons) have been moved into 4 door tray backs (Hilux/Triton/Whatever) by their respective fleet operators due to a $2700 tax (sorry I didn't catch the name of said tax) that does NOT apply to 1 ton "work vehicles".

        No doubt this would have affected the bread and butter sales of Holden and Ford and chopped deeply into a profitable market segment for both locals. It just seems (to me) a little ironic that on one hand the Govco are giving cash handouts to both companies, whilst on the other applying a tax that gives their competitors an instant $2700 (per annum I believe) leg up. Ironic, but not at all surprising...

        Personally I'd prefer a basic Falcadore to a GerlyTruck (my very basic VT is fine for my needs) but obviously I'm in a small minority. By basic, I mean I really don't need a trillion weight and cost adding trinkets. Airbags, AC and cruise with stereo is fine for me. I don't even mind winding my own windows up and down. I guess over the years it's become a "keeping up with the Jones's" kinda deal and tit for tat development driven by marketing (more gizmos for your $$!!) that's killed off the original "base model" concept. Obviously, they'll never go back to a base model along the lines of an old executive etc. Today's "base model" Omega is quite probably better specced than a VR/S Statesman!

        As for the original question, well the media have certainly convinced your average Joe that a large Australian sedan is expensive to run and Falcadore's ended up having smaller and more efficient drive trains offered in an effort to combat this perception and boost sales (along side bigger and more powerful performance models: 'Straya!!) but it was too little, too late. Mum, dad and 2.5 kids were told that saving .05l/100 not only saved them $10000000000/yr but also saved the trees, the whales, carbon, puppies and babies!! So they happily bought a slow, ill handling highset corolla/Rio/Civic or whatever and subsequently drove smugly to and from school with 2.5 securely strapped into a $2000 safety cells surrounded by smiling dolphins... On top of this was the (again) media driven perception that a Commodore or Falcon is a car owned and driven by so called "Bogans" therefore a class below the new breed of discerning latte sipping buyers for whom a chintzy Korean AWD is considered a minimum standard. My VT is certainly unique amongst the elite at the school drop off, and sneered at appropriately lol!

        I'm guessing there'll be someone on here who can tell me running costs of a Falcadore vs a GerlyTruck.. I'm guessing there's not a hell of a lot in it, and probably not enough to justify the compromises inherent in a tallish hatch versus a pretty well sorted sedan (I'll qualify that with it being my opinion). Again, I'd say that I'm in a minority here based on sales...

        Regardless, losing local manufacturing can't be a good thing. There'll be a lot of job losses incurred even though they'll still be assembling some vehicles here (they are.. Aren't they?!?) with multiple component industries getting axed, and other associated industries suffering as a result... Whatever the case, I guess it's too late now, and a pretty good chapter in Australian history is coming to a close. Economies of scale and a less than even global playing field ensured this outcome quite a while ago really, but as Marco said so well: hindsight is far easier than seeing into the future

        *apologiea for rambling, slightly drunken opinion piece :D
        Originally posted by thecrackfox
        I wanna put you in a dress and hurt you...

        Comment


          ^The tax you speak of is FBT (Fringe Benefits Tax).

          The Corolla/Rio/Civic or whatever aren't underpowered shitboxes anymore, nowdays they go just as well if not better than a 6 cyl Falcadore and often have more features, are pretty room inside and cost less than a Falcadore.

          Not sure why people like the gerlytrucks so much, probably partly to do with the higher driving position and partly as a more trendy stationwagon alternative.

          Comment


            Komori what you've added to Marco's posts are spot on

            Even though i foresee the end game of Corvettes being sold here.. The cons are pretty fucking huge

            Comment


              SUVs and Thailand trucks have the consumer zeitgeist (I love that word)

              see this is the thing, i know you guys and the internet loves shooting brakes and performance wagons and all that off the wall bullshite but the world doesnt revolve around us

              full sized sedans arent worth shit, hell even in the US the only full sized sedans doing any bizzo is performance or luxury
              Originally posted by boxxx

              Deutsche Bahn Rail: Trains are a great way to get lots of people concentrated into a small area, like a camp.
              ACA/TT: Where's the line between a car enthusiast and hoon? There is none

              Comment


                Originally posted by Marco_VESS View Post
                I'd agree with that. It seems the only way to keep the factory open is to build something with the lowest possible development cost so you recoup your investment quicker (or at all). Seems to have worked with the Camry for long enough, and the Cruze is similar.
                http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business...-1226740173978



                The "insider" got fired about a week after this went to the press.

                Originally posted by Marco_VESS View Post
                There's absolutely no way money could be made on a new Commodore that wasn't substantially the same as an overseas model. I'd been hoping that GM might build something on the Alpha platform and also do a Chev/Buick version so the costs were spread over a far greater number of units; the local engineers etc would still be involved.

                Seems like the best that could be hoped for is some sort of Malibu/Impala with a light restyle and maybe the local guys can design a wagon version or something, like they did with the Cruze hatchback. For the V8 market, you might see the Camaro and maybe they'll put the LSx in the Colorado again too.
                The V8 market is dead if you're building it here. We don't have that many rich people who can afford V8s lining up for Holden/Ford V8. They'd be lining up for Merc/BMW V8's at that level. Plus fuel prices are high enough to steer away average income buyers from V8. Also a majority of the public don't give a rats arse about that much power. 4 bangers and V6 is plenty in the day of revenue cameras and speed kills world.

                Originally posted by Marco_VESS View Post
                Maybe the time has come for that car. If nothing else there's already a Malibu hybrid and the price of fuel is only going to go up from here. Honestly if I was advising the company I'd say do that, but I don't want to buy that car myself.
                The market has not accepted the hybrid story even though there is a good case story for having it in the market for those that regularly drive in the city. When people think hybrid, they think toy car with AA in it. The general public thinks they need batteries changed every few years costing thousands, it needs to be charged like a toy car and it's not very fast. Only one of those could be true but even so, a Prius is faster than an Impreza slushbox yet the Impreza doesn't get the slow label as badly as a Prius (Go drive a Infiniti or Lexus GS/RX/LS or even a Camry hybrid if someone thinks they are slow).

                Originally posted by Marco_VESS View Post
                Let me throw this out there: Ford is closing its factory but keeping its engineers etc who seem to have done a top job with the Ranger for instance. Is it better for Australia to employ a small number of people in high value jobs like design and engineering, or a larger number of people in factory jobs?
                They already have engineering departments here. Toyota has the Toyota Technical Centre Australia directly controlled by Toyota Japan. Toyota also has a design studio here working on projects which may or may not be sold in Australia. Ford and Holden also have their local engineers here that did well with the Ranger. But with employing factory people at these technical departments is hard because most of the factory line workers (not having a go at these people who do build cars well within their limitation) are not at the level of engineers. Some could make that transition mainly to do with quality but then there'd be a way oversupply in resources than what we could do with but I reckon Australia is a perfect place to test out things like harsh hot weather climates and even better when the unlimited speed thing comes back in the NT.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Falchoon View Post

                  Not sure why people like the gerlytrucks so much, probably partly to do with the higher driving position and partly as a more trendy stationwagon alternative.
                  Id say its a mix of higher driving position giving them a weird sense of better road visibility (so long as its in front of you), keeping up with the joneseses, and the fact that everything can be done at waist height instead of having to bend down and over all the time to buckle in kids/get groceries out/whatever else the active mum on the go does. Because women are shit drivers, being able to run over kerbs, up gutters, speedbumps and over your own kids in relative comfort also seals the deal.
                  "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that it's difficult to discern whether or not they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by smellytofu View Post
                    The V8 market is dead if you're building it here. We don't have that many rich people who can afford V8s lining up for Holden/Ford V8. They'd be lining up for Merc/BMW V8's at that level. Plus fuel prices are high enough to steer away average income buyers from V8. Also a majority of the public don't give a rats arse about that much power. 4 bangers and V6 is plenty in the day of revenue cameras and speed kills world.
                    Actually Holden V8 sales trundle along at about the same level year after year oblivious to fuel prices, speed cameras and all the rest of it (if my info is correct). There's a core group of people who want a V8 and that's that. It's just that it won't work if you haven't got a volume selling car to carry the V8 option, it's not viable as a stand alone model.

                    [/quote]They already have engineering departments here. Toyota has the Toyota Technical Centre Australia directly controlled by Toyota Japan. Toyota also has a design studio here working on projects which may or may not be sold in Australia. Ford and Holden also have their local engineers here that did well with the Ranger. But with employing factory people at these technical departments is hard because most of the factory line workers (not having a go at these people who do build cars well within their limitation) are not at the level of engineers. Some could make that transition mainly to do with quality but then there'd be a way oversupply in resources than what we could do with but I reckon Australia is a perfect place to test out things like harsh hot weather climates and even better when the unlimited speed thing comes back in the NT.[/QUOTE]

                    Yeah I know they do, that is what I was getting at - are we better off having people do design and development work here on cars manufactured overseas, or having people build overseas designed cars in a local factory? A small number of highly skilled jobs, or a larger number of factory jobs?

                    Seems like bizarro world to think that in five years time, if you want a modestly priced RWD car for a family you might be knocking on Kia's door, and the Mazda BT50 will be one of the most Aussie cars you can buy.

                    Buggered if I know what I'd replace my Commodore with either.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by teamtoken View Post
                      Id say its a mix of higher driving position giving them a weird sense of better road visibility (so long as its in front of you), keeping up with the joneseses, and the fact that everything can be done at waist height instead of having to bend down and over all the time to buckle in kids/get groceries out/whatever else the active mum on the go does. Because women are shit drivers, being able to run over kerbs, up gutters, speedbumps and over your own kids in relative comfort also seals the deal.
                      That and the packaging advantage of extra height means you can fit more into a given footprint. I nearly lost the will to live after driving a CRV for a week, but I will acknowledge that it had decent space for what is basically a tall Civic.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Marco_VESS View Post
                        Actually Holden V8 sales trundle along at about the same level year after year oblivious to fuel prices, speed cameras and all the rest of it (if my info is correct). There's a core group of people who want a V8 and that's that. It's just that it won't work if you haven't got a volume selling car to carry the V8 option, it's not viable as a stand alone model.
                        With Holden and Ford gone. If you like the sound of a V8, and want a new car, your choices are (from low to high):
                        -SRT-8 300
                        -Landcruiser workmate single cab
                        -Jeep Grand Cherokee
                        Only other choices under 100g are Landcruiser and Patrol wagons.

                        If you want something that is performance oriented then your choices start at 125g for an M3 or Lexus IS-F. Add 25g for an RS8 or 35g for a base level C63 AMG.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by cheapracer View Post
                          First thing I would do is grab the CEO of Ford and Toyots and tell, not ask, the idiot Government that we aren't playing the Australian ADR game anymore that costs us a fortune to adhere to and prevents us from being competitive on the International markets. American or Euro standards are as high if not higher, we'll use those standards thank you.

                          ADR's uniqueness and the Governments egotistical "We'll do it our way" have been hurting the industry since the 70's and to further the point, not just the auto industry either.
                          Oh for fuck's sake, all of this.

                          Hurry up and give ISOFIX the green light, so the importers can knock the price down a bit on cars that already have it as standard.
                          Originally posted by brewdles
                          In short, some cunt at test and tune had a 250cc honda turning to 11ty and it sounded porn. Do that.

                          Comment


                            I thought Isofix was all approved/good?
                            Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Forg View Post
                              I thought Isofix was all approved/good?
                              In the process of, last I checked.
                              Originally posted by brewdles
                              In short, some cunt at test and tune had a 250cc honda turning to 11ty and it sounded porn. Do that.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Mr Evo 7 View Post
                                In the process of, last I checked.
                                Ah, OK ... context was friends that've already spawned & were annoyed it'd taken until now to get the safer PLUS cheaper option approved. I therefore thought it was done & dusted.

                                It's shit like this, more than countries like Germany & USA driving on the wrong side of the car just because the English don't, that adds cost to cars sold here.
                                Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

                                Comment

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