Another very large asteroid on its way

[Warpspeed]

I am probably wrong, but I understand solitons to be a subsurface disturbance, wheras a tsunami starts out in a similar way but gradually forms into a massive surface wave as it reaches shallower water.

A section of undersea floor suddenly moves vertically (like a piston) and there is a vertical displacement of water which does not fully reach the surface from great depths.

This travels outwards as a vertical displacement wave, a bit like giving a tight horizontal rope a vertical flick. If one of these hits your submarine, its a bit like hitting an air pocket in an aircraft.

The submarine rapidly changes depth, than returns to where it was a a short time later. If its up o/k, but if its down bye bye submarine.

[jimmythe7th]

I dont see how a soliton wave could be possible in the ocean. As there is nothing guiding, forcing the wave in one direction and keeping its energy going that way like in that cannal example with the boat. You are right about tsuamni's they build up as they get closser to shore or as depth decreases. They can be felt in depper ocean but they are so small and people dont realize it was a tsuamni.

[Warpspeed]

There are two ways to make a wave, and the results are quite different.

First, you drop a pebble into water, (or a giant asteroid into the ocean). this is a surface phenomena. The rock hits the surface and spreads the water apart, making a hole.

The water then rushes back equally from all directions to fill the hole, forming a sharp massive peak. And you get the famous plop sound, some droplets can even fly into the air when the water meets.

The water then spreads out again forming a hollow in the centre, this repeats many times, and you get many circular ripples spreading out in ever increasing circles one behind the other.

The second way would be to originate a wave by displacing water from beneath the surface. this could be volcanic, or an explosion of some sort at great depth.

You would then get one wave only (soliton) that would be like a single shock wave that would then expand in all directions. But there would be only one wave.

If a giant asteroid hit it would be with massive force that might create an oceanic hole many times larger than the asteroid, maybe a hundred times. The tidal waves or tsunamis would not only be very large, there would be many of them one after the other.

So the volcanic ones give you one wave, the asteroid ones many waves. Pretty terrible to think about really.

[Andrew Bolt]

Warpspeed got it in one.
It would be one hell of a splash.

[jimmythe7th]

Agreed

But I would replace soliton with tsuanmi. Unless they mean genearlly the same thing. Tidal waves are different and created totaly differently to tsuanmi's.

[Jim]

a direct translation of tsunami is almost as meaningless as kamikazi.

[BENN0]

Silitons have not caused any subs to crash. If you have been told that then it has been a "PR story telling time". Im guessing you are referring to the Kursk?

[Warpspeed]

I read an article in Popular Mechanics maybe twelve years ago about several mysterious losses of submarines by the US navy in very deep water. Deep submersibles showed massive structural damage from the submarines being crushed. The article went on to discuss a theory about massive solitons and how they might be a possible cause. But who knows ?

The Kursk (USSR?) may be one, and Thresher (USA)another, but I cannot really remember the names after all this time. Are you a submariner BENNO ?

[No-Logic]

The Kursk was definetly NOT due to any mystery waves etc.

THe Kursk explosion was due to a faulty brand of Torpedo. The british used to use the same kind of torpedo (cant remember exactly, uses a different kind of fuel to the one they use now I think), but they themselves had a rathe large accident while they were loading the Submarine with them, and the British abandon'ed the design.

The Russian's kept with it. I forget the exact reason it happened, but it came down to the Torpedo exploding in the Forward Torpedo store, and it took the rest with them, From there the ship was gone.

I'll look up some more detail later. I'm a massive fan of subs. Watched Crimson Tide last night

[Andrew Bolt]

The reassuring words of Dr Phil......:D

[No-Logic]

United States officials say that there were two explosions on board the submarine, the first equivalent to that of a torpedo warhead.

The Kursk was carrying torpedoes powered by a liquid peroxide fuel, a substance tried by Britain's Royal Navy in the 1960s but rejected for being too unstable.

It is believed that a torpedo may have misfired on the Kursk, and exploded in the tube.

Speculation turns around a torpedo accident, one reason being the sub was at periscope depth when the calamity began, which is the level at which a submarine usually fires its torpedoes. Reports also state that weapon-firing exercises were in progress and Moscow sources corroborate that the Kursk was testing a new weapon system and that might well have been the cause of the accident. Former vice president and now governor of the region, Alexander Rutskoi, confirmed it when he said two high-ranking military officers had told him that civilian military experts were aboard the Kursk to test new torpedoes. They could have been testing either of two types of weapons, an upgrade of the Squall or the newer Stallion.

The latter is a new highly secret weapon known as the 100-RU Veder missile, NATO code-named: SS-N-16A Stallion. It utilizes silver battery driven propellers to send it out from the submarine to a safe distance before a liquid fueled rocket engine kicks in to send the missile to the surface. From there it flies under rocket power at supersonic speed until just above its target, where it ejects a lightweight-torpedo with a parachute and a 200 pound explosive warhead, that slowly drops into the water, which then homes in on the submarine. It can be armed with a mini-nuclear warhead and can engage targets at depths of up to 500 meters.

The Shkval (Squall) is an amazingly fast torpedo-type weapon, developed by the hydro-aerospace systems department of the Moscow Sergo Ordzhonikidze Aviation Institute. Most torpedoes go about 35-45 kt; the fastest allied one being the UK's Spearfish, which has a maximum speed of 75 kt. The Squall can go 200 kt and it is rumored that newer models can reach an astonishing speed of 260 kt!. It was back in 1994, that Russian reports first surfaced regarding an anti-submarine missile called Shkval, a rocket propelled, supercavitation weapon, 533 mm in diameter and 8.23m long, that could attack targets at a depth of 400 m and at ranges of up to 12 km.

[No-Logic]

A little more for those interested.. Some stuff I didnt know.

The new, untested torpedo was dropped during transport from factory to port, but was loaded aboard the Kursk anyway, according to a recent report published in the Russian daily Izvestiya. It also said crewmembers heard of the incident and were reluctant to set sail with it on board.

Kuroyedov did acknowledge that the sub's torpedoes, propelled by volatile hydrogen peroxide, were unreliable. Other countries abandoned them after a 1955 explosion on the British submarine Sidon, he said; the Soviet Union began using them in 1957.

On Monday, Kuroyedov shifted responsibility for the torpedo's shortcomings to "scientists and designers," saying the hydrogen peroxide's "contact with certain metals may cause unpredictable consequences." "These torpedoes have always been a big headache for submariners because they had hydrogen peroxide in their fuel, which is very leaky and can easily cause a fire on board."

The torpedo has since been withdrawn from use by the Russian navy.

[Billzilla]

Yep, a hydrogen peroxide power torpedo.
There was also a theory that it was one of the Shkval high-speed torpedo's that was going to be demonstrated for the Chinese, but this was later found to be not true.

*The Shkval or Squall torpedo really is a high-speed torpedo. Where a normal torpedo can do in the low 40 knot speed area, a Shkval can do up around 230 knots +.

More here - http://www.sciam.com/2001/0501issue/0501ashley.html

[Beavis]

Supercavitation Is Cool (tm)

[Warpspeed]

Goodness me, and I thought the closed cycle internal combustion engines used in torpedoes and extreme altitude piston aircraft were high tech.