F1 and Turbos

[Zac]

Grrr I give up...

[Ustasa]

That SAE report looks like it came from my old site lol

Notice how it says they used cast iron for the turbo blocks. I can see the skyline comparisons drawn already

[jampac]

I read those papers a few years ago, but yeah there an awesome read, very detailed info on the engine development.

[jampac]

Another thing thats interesting is the intercooler bypass valve so as to keep the intake charge at a certain temp to better fuel ecomony.

[schu]

Cheers Redsun,
definately some interesting reading. Im reading "The Turbo Era" by Alan Henry at the moment. Certainly adds some interesting information to the whole mix.


dave

[Maadmike]

Is anyone else having trouble viewing the pics? I'd love to read them if anyone could zip them up or something?

[chino]

Well yeah... because they were posted in June.

[2002 turbo]

Great topic!

Honda's V6 was said to have copied the 80 degree format that was used by the Porsche TAG F1 engines which were a 1.5 litre quad cam engine featuring a unique 80 degree V6 with twin KKK turbochargers,

Talking about boost pressures I also have read up on the following info about the Porsche TAG motors
- Compression ratio for the motor started at 6.9:1, then was raised to 7.2 with 3.1 bar boost pressure in 1983.
- In 1984 the it was raised to 7.8:1
- 1985 saw 3.3 bar in the race motor producing a reliable 800 bhp while 3.8 was used in qualifying.
- 1986 saw compression rise to 8.0:1 with 3.4 bar boost producing 850 bhp in race trim, qualifying trim saw 4.2 bar used.
- 1987 saw fuel consumption play a larger role, compression rose to to 8.7:1, boost rose to 3.5 bar and power steeped up to 900 bhp.

The BMW M12 is another great story too! A production block
( same as whats in my own car!) crazy boost levels, rocket fuel from a formula used by BASF to make fuel for the V2 rockets of WW2..... and all up 1350 bhp in qualifying trim! Have read a bit about that motor too, the design in the 1980s was not overly new as it had been around since the late 1960s when Paul Rosche designed the Afelbeck engine, then used in the European F2 championship were it dominated but it was re-developed for F1.
Started with mechanical injection and KKK turbos but later progressed to Bosch motronic and Garrett turbos after too many KKKs failed. Later on the Brabham team lowered the motor to sit on its side but this wasn't a success.

Little do some people know but this motor was actually being used in Australia too at the same time as F1, but as a 2 litre version in the JPS BMW 318i Turbo Sport Sedan that Jim Richards raced in the AustralianGT/ Sport Sedan Championship.

[methodmania]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood
Renault used the first turbo engines (1.5 litre V-6) in teh late 70's, I think, but they weren't successful until the very early 80's. The turbo engine hit their peak in 1984/85, and were making so much power that they had to be restricted by several means.
The most powerful was probably the BMW striaght four, which made 1470hp in qualifying trim on the dyno.



From reading what Nelson Piquet said about driving the Brabham/BMW with that much power, he had to drive around the corners without using the engine as quickly as possible, steer the car to the middle of the track then push the accelerator and hang on.
They were able to get serious wheelspin in 6th gear if they wanted ....

that thing is absolutely beautiful!! engineering excellence.

[mizone]

More than worth it in any racers books. As for reliability, I can't recall any turbo related failures in recent CART history.

Well there was a blow off valve failure at gold coast indy with one car....

I think turbos are as reliable as any other part in a motor. Look at long haul trucks for example.

Direct injection and solenoid controlled valves should see F1 power go up.

[Bixler]

turbo F1 cars are mad and i heard from some one who actually worked on F1 cars that they did run something like 80psi boost in qualifying trim, the engines for that were hand grenades though, like one lap and they were buggered. surely they do make some awsome power per litre though. group B rally cars and touring cars from that era are so awsome. i also love can am cars as well. like the porsche 917. i think the closest thing to the turbo engines of those days would b the engines from pikes peak hillclimb cars :D as some one was saying about the sound b4, F1 cars sound cool but i also love the sound of the Mazda 787B 4 rotor engine. oooo yeah

[athlon]

Just to back track, I think it went Turbo era, 3.5lt then 3lt.

[I Wish]

Originally posted by type_rz
If you can get your hands on a book called "The 1000 BHP Grand Prix Cars" by Ian Bamsey ISBN 0-85429-617-4. It is one of the best (if not the best) books that outlines the technology of the era. I'd sell you mine, but the book is worth a pretty penny these days...

Quote: "Berger saw a 5.5 bar flash reading... Heini Mader estimated over 1300b.h.p." Rory Byrne - Technical Director - Benetton Formula Ltd

From memory was that when Berger flew out of the pits and recorded the highest F1 top speed ever, when they wound up the boost for qualifying ?

Blew everything away and he shat himself.

Absolute legend that guy

:D

[rhspecr]

Originally posted by The Pupat
zac: It's much easier to build a motor to take a turbo and a little bit of boost than it is to make it rev 2000RPM more. Just look at CART they are making the same power (approximately) at 15,000RPM as F1 at 17,000RPM but rarely have an engine failure whilst F1 can't go a race without one.

There is many more factors to the engine reliability than NA vs turbo though when comparing f1 and CART. For starters the weight of the whole car for an f1 is waaaaaaay lighter so it has smaller radiators, sumps ect.. and runs alot hotter which contributes to the poorer reliability. The materials for the engines are alot different also, especially the pistons and then there is the issue of fuels (ULP vs methanol) which is probably the key factor. Speaking to a collegue from illmor mercedes yesterday and the new engine for the 2004 spec mclaren topped 856hp @19200rpm. They believe it will have that ability by melbourne. I clearly remember when i started in f1 back in 1998 that the engine at the time was round 720hp. Its incredible how much progress they have made in power terms.
BTW, i was told from renault that once they implement their electro-magnetic valve system (EMVS) in 2005, they will be beyond 22000rpm. For a multi-cylinder petrol engine i fine that beyond comprehension.

[John]

I'm surprised he tells you such things, as surely this would be classified.

J