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Which Car Ver. No Depreciation Daily Driver, Because Money is Cheap!

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    Originally posted by IMOA View Post

    No, its not a reasonable argument. Local cars are always worth more because you don't need to go through the hassle of importing and complying them and bringing them up to aussie spec, they can be inspected properly before purchase and thats before the issue of there's only very few S15's that can be imported because they were sold locally. Adding in the wollongong comment doesn't make it a reasonable argument, it's a shit strawman.
    ADM S15's were/are p-plate legal. You think that bad ownership history doesn't devalue a car? Not to mention the fact that Jap spec S15's are usually the better example of the car.

    I don't necessarily think that a good example is a bad purchase right now, but I also don't think that 100% capital returns on cars in ~8 months with questionable history represents a sustainable market. This view is at least partially supported by all the stats about a hot second hand car market for the last 6 months.

    It's a far more reasonable argument than some unsupported conjecture about all these 40+ year olds sweating at their chance to own a 90s Nissan who apparently don't have the patience to just import a really clean one for the same price (or less).

    Comment


      I thought this thread was about using cheap money and slow depreciation to spend some time in an exceptional vehicle that would otherwise be outside sensible spending.

      If I were contemplating such a move, I think a 4.0 litre Porsche Cayman for a year would be my call.

      " Racing cars don't have doors. Toilets have doors" : Keke Rosberg

      Comment


        Originally posted by The Panda View Post

        ADM S15's were/are p-plate legal. You think that bad ownership history doesn't devalue a car? Not to mention the fact that Jap spec S15's are usually the better example of the car.

        I don't necessarily think that a good example is a bad purchase right now, but I also don't think that 100% capital returns on cars in ~8 months with questionable history represents a sustainable market. This view is at least partially supported by all the stats about a hot second hand car market for the last 6 months.

        It's a far more reasonable argument than some unsupported conjecture about all these 40+ year olds sweating at their chance to own a 90s Nissan who apparently don't have the patience to just import a really clean one for the same price (or less).
        Ok, a few things

        Yes they’re P plate legal now, no, they weren’t P plate legal until relatively recently in a lot of jurisdictions and just because they are p plate legal doesn’t mean that every S15 has been abused by a P player. Your comparison of an S15 owned by 4 Wollongong P platers to a car imported form Japan is as strawman as if I’d said a one middle aged owner local S15 compared to a drift pig imported from Japan. Don’t pick an outlier on one side and not the other and expect it to be considered a reasonable argument.

        I don’t think 100% capital returns in 8 months is sustainable either which is why I haven’t suggested that the market would do that nor has the market done that in the last 8 months. The price of S15’s hasn’t risen considerably during covid, there’s been a steady rise over the last 5-10 years. I’d say thats likely due to sweaty 40 year olds but it could just be magic.

        And I have checked the prices in Japan, the prices are not as cheap as you’re claiming. You’re looking mid to high 20’s FOB for something which hasn’t obviously abused so by the time you get it in you’ve got an imported car that you didn’t inspect, don’t know the history and you’ve paid a premium for it.

        You’re not making reasonable arguments, you’re making up facts and playing the strawman. You’ve given a few people some lectures recently for talking out of their arse, to be fair somewhat justifiably, in this case you really need to give yourself one.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Roy928tt View Post
          I thought this thread was about using cheap money and slow depreciation to spend some time in an exceptional vehicle that would otherwise be outside sensible spending.

          If I were contemplating such a move, I think a 4.0 litre Porsche Cayman for a year would be my call.
          I said it in another thread but IMO the GTS 4.0 Boxster and cayman are the best cars Porsche make right now ( taking into account value etc).

          But they will depreciate from new.

          Comment


            Originally posted by IMOA View Post
            The price of S15’s hasn’t risen considerably during covid, there’s been a steady rise over the last 5-10 years.
            This bit ... this bit actually surprises me, given that I'm pretty sure STi's & EVO's & similar appear to have CoronaGlitched in price.
            I reckon that fact would actually make them a better bet than pretty much anything else JDM of similar age, right now at least.

            I know that's not what the thread was about, but it's where it went. I think we ran out of proper baller suggestions on Page 2.
            Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

            Comment


              Talk of future classics is super interesting for me at the moment, I'm in a position I never thought I'd be in. People lucky enough to have got one of (potentially) a small number of GR Yaris' (Aus delivered, likely between 1350-2000?) have the potential to have a future classic in 10-20 years time. Its a similar style to a STI or Evo (maybe even more special than these due to its uniqueness to its namesake), its made at a time when very few other manufacturers are making similar cars, its manual, suited to drivers, has a shit ton of hype at launch with a very likely limited global run.

              I'm going to keep it basically forever, at least 10 years, probably double that. While I'm going to drive it fairly regularly, its not going to have more than 5000-7000km per year put on it, I'm also probably not going to mod it all that much.
              Will it be worth the same or more than what I paid for it in 2/5/10/20 years time? No idea, maybe? Will it be this generations evo/sierra cosworth/integrale? Maybe?

              As I mentioned, I didn't think it would have the hype it has, I didn't think it would be as cheap as we got it for and I didn't think I'd have the means to buy it. Am I glad I did and am I stoked that it may actually be an investment that pays itself over the next period of my life, fucking oath. In saying all this, I've got absolutely no idea how to care for a car like this. Apart from garaging it, keeping it well maintained and (possibly) as original as possible, is there anything else I should do?

              p.s. I know I should probably stop talking about this car but its hard to contain the excitement....
              Last edited by 23Kev; 19-11-20, 03:23 PM.
              I survived the patio flooding catastrophe of 2012.

              Comment


                The prices will tank before they go up.

                I know at some stage in the future I'll regret selling my 86 for so cheap, but realistically it was at stage 3 of the 'collector car' phase.

                These are:
                1. More valuable than list price because of supply issues (0-6 months).
                2. Less valuable than list price because of oversupply and cancelled orders (6-12 months after release).
                3. Available cheaply second hand and thrashed by P-platers (12 months to 8 years).
                4. Stabilising prices of the rare non-thrashed examples (8 years to 12 years).
                5. Increasing value because they're extremely rare because most have been written off (12 years +).
                6. Modern classics because the teenagers that wanted them new are now rich and can afford them (20 years +).

                If you can sit tight for 20 years they'll get there. But part of what makes these cars worth money is that the vast majority are killed by P-platers when they're worth nothing. The natural selection phase is important.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Mr Purple View Post
                  The prices will tank before they go up.

                  I know at some stage in the future I'll regret selling my 86 for so cheap, but realistically it was at stage 3 of the 'collector car' phase.

                  These are:
                  1. More valuable than list price because of supply issues (0-6 months).
                  2. Less valuable than list price because of oversupply and cancelled orders (6-12 months after release).
                  3. Available cheaply second hand and thrashed by P-platers (12 months to 8 years).
                  4. Stabilising prices of the rare non-thrashed examples (8 years to 12 years).
                  5. Increasing value because they're extremely rare because most have been written off (12 years +).
                  6. Modern classics because the teenagers that wanted them new are now rich and can afford them (20 years +).

                  If you can sit tight for 20 years they'll get there. But part of what makes these cars worth money is that the vast majority are killed by P-platers when they're worth nothing. The natural selection phase is important.
                  Nice phasing, I like it.
                  I'll ensure I continue to give the youngsters on the FB pages shit for being unable to drive so they push harder and crash their cars. There is already one dealer demo gone from a test drive crash so here's hoping!
                  I survived the patio flooding catastrophe of 2012.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by 23Kev View Post
                    Talk of future classics is super interesting for me at the moment, I'm in a position I never thought I'd be in. People lucky enough to have got one of (potentially) a small number of GR Yaris' (Aus delivered, likely between 1350-2000?) have the potential to have a future classic in 10-20 years time. Its a similar style to a STI or Evo (maybe even more special than these due to its uniqueness to its namesake), its made at a time when very few other manufacturers are making similar cars, its manual, suited to drivers, has a shit ton of hype at launch with a very likely limited global run.
                    ...

                    p.s. I know I should probably stop talking about this car but its hard to contain the excitement....
                    It's always way too hard to predict the market in cars, other than simply age and at least being somewhat special. I bought my 32GTR for about 16k, 10 years ago they were a "bucket" (er, it still is, but still a unique thing) on a lazy day maybe would sell for $40k. You could say the same about an s15 from 5 years ago too, nothing special but now has plenty of attraction.

                    There is still going to be quite a few exciting drivers cars in the next 5 years or so, that will give you plenty of options to choose from... older "classics" may sell for a good price,but still will probably be pretty poor in every way compared to whatever the "latest and greatest" thing is... I went in a mate's Model 3, and fuck, it made anything I had ever driven some horse and cart type vehicle, but it still doesn't mean my GTR is worth $5k.

                    Electric is coming on, and maybe will be the future for the next 100+ years, but when, and what is desirable in that market from now is unknown.
                    Last edited by fury; 19-11-20, 10:31 PM.
                    RIP Simon - Ghost ride that whip in the clouds forever..

                    Comment


                      All this talk has some valid points, about what is and will be desireable.

                      But one thing I do know is new cars almost always depreciate heaps. Hence my idea of using cheap money to buy an interesting car for a daily (not weekender - that's too easy) that won't depreciate much.

                      Latest crazy idea, bit left field: Lexus LS / GS 460 from 2007 / 2008. Hard to argue with Toyota reliability and Lexus obsessiveness when at 20k buy in price. So same as a Commode SS from same vintage then... No comparison! They sound amazing and go alright too, same as a stock SS commode from the day for speed and far better than a dirty droning LS donk

                      Mate was with Lexus as Service Boss for years back in the day. We took a then new LS460 out for a late night hwy strafe in 08. The then world first 8 speed auto and superb engine blew our collective minds. Will it appreciate like a classic? No. But will it provide surprise and delight daily driving without losing a heap of money and endless reliability headaches? Quite possibly.

                      That's what this thread was originally about. Ideas like the above. Keep them coming!

                      Comment


                        Spend an extra 10-15k and get an ISF instead. Still get the creamy v8 and reliability of a lexus with more potential to appreciate in value.
                        Evo VIII MR

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by SLrocket View Post
                          Spend an extra 10-15k and get an ISF instead. Still get the creamy v8 and reliability of a lexus with more potential to appreciate in value.
                          I kinda think this ... I think an LS460 is pretty comparable now to an LS400 10 years ago, and I can see LS460's continuing to depreciate towards the value of an LS400 ... (nothing)
                          Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by IMOA View Post

                            Ok, a few things

                            Yes they’re P plate legal now, no, they weren’t P plate legal until relatively recently in a lot of jurisdictions and just because they are p plate legal doesn’t mean that every S15 has been abused by a P player. Your comparison of an S15 owned by 4 Wollongong P platers to a car imported form Japan is as strawman as if I’d said a one middle aged owner local S15 compared to a drift pig imported from Japan. Don’t pick an outlier on one side and not the other and expect it to be considered a reasonable argument.

                            I don’t think 100% capital returns in 8 months is sustainable either which is why I haven’t suggested that the market would do that nor has the market done that in the last 8 months. The price of S15’s hasn’t risen considerably during covid, there’s been a steady rise over the last 5-10 years. I’d say thats likely due to sweaty 40 year olds but it could just be magic.

                            And I have checked the prices in Japan, the prices are not as cheap as you’re claiming. You’re looking mid to high 20’s FOB for something which hasn’t obviously abused so by the time you get it in you’ve got an imported car that you didn’t inspect, don’t know the history and you’ve paid a premium for it.

                            You’re not making reasonable arguments, you’re making up facts and playing the strawman. You’ve given a few people some lectures recently for talking out of their arse, to be fair somewhat justifiably, in this case you really need to give yourself one.
                            I used to throw in the "people grew up with these cars but now have real jobs and can afford it" argument, but recently, especially since advertised prices have been berserk, I've been seeing different. Something I never considered would be that it is KIDS who are buying cars for this amount.

                            For context sake, I am in Wollongong, on one hand I know the stereotypes Panda is saying burns through cars and devalues them (one couple both cashed in their 10k super to buy his Silvia, but they probably have been through as many cars as I have stripped over the years. They buy an over priced shitter, when one coilpack fails, they sell bits off the car to pay bills and then sell it for a quarter what they paid. Rinse and repeat... I wish I was joking). On the other hand, I see at least one car transporter a week with 3-5 Supras heading to the docks for export, every single week. The stupid price we see on auto/manual/.turbo/NA Supras is irrelevant because they're all going overseas for top dollar.

                            Back to my point, the avenue I never considered is the fact that there is now a generation of cAr PeOpLe who have only ever seen these prices, and think they're normal. 17 year old I work with proudly bought a rough, high km NA MX5 for 13.5k, and when that got written off, has been looking at "cheap" R34 nonturbo auto's for 15k, because that's quite reasonable for those cars. When I thought she was quite retarded, one of my customers customers brought in her new 180SX, which she paid 30k for. Rough all round, one headlight doesn't popup, doesn't even have coilovers or any real mods. Definitely not collectible, it's not fit for ANY purpose without a couple grand thrown at it.

                            My similarly aged friends (I'm 34) who grew up with these cars and now have decent jobs (I don't) also watched the prices of these cars come down over the years, and also the condition, and can't reconcile the fact that people want the most money for these cars in the worst condition they've ever been. Maybe that just means I'm not the target market though. </csh> </alcohol fuelled dribble>

                            Comment


                              Low interest loans, early income access schemes and other welfare. Enter the financially illiterate or better yet, "yolo" category!

                              It's like E30s 5-10years ago. They gain a cult following, demand/desire picks up while the same crowd (and E30 race series) writes them off or parts them out further fueling the prices we aren't accustomed to for seemingly cleaner examples.
                              In a way I agree, there's distinct groups of friends in their early-mid 30's. One that's "been there, done that" and can't be stuffed wrenching and finding all the half-arsed stuff which is inevitable on any 20-30 year old car. They'd rather just throw money or lease a new car whether it be german barge or new mx5/86 etc along with the family bus. Or the others that have had them already for close to 10 years gained renewed motivation to "complete" them either themselves or now have more disposable income to throw at a workshop to finish loose ends. Or the same owner that hung on, finally cashes out off-market via friends who'd know all about the car, or likely helped out on it once upon a time.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by IMOA View Post

                                Ok, a few things

                                Yes they’re P plate legal now, no, they weren’t P plate legal until relatively recently in a lot of jurisdictions and just because they are p plate legal doesn’t mean that every S15 has been abused by a P player. Your comparison of an S15 owned by 4 Wollongong P platers to a car imported form Japan is as strawman as if I’d said a one middle aged owner local S15 compared to a drift pig imported from Japan. Don’t pick an outlier on one side and not the other and expect it to be considered a reasonable argument.

                                I don’t think 100% capital returns in 8 months is sustainable either which is why I haven’t suggested that the market would do that nor has the market done that in the last 8 months. The price of S15’s hasn’t risen considerably during covid, there’s been a steady rise over the last 5-10 years. I’d say thats likely due to sweaty 40 year olds but it could just be magic.

                                And I have checked the prices in Japan, the prices are not as cheap as you’re claiming. You’re looking mid to high 20’s FOB for something which hasn’t obviously abused so by the time you get it in you’ve got an imported car that you didn’t inspect, don’t know the history and you’ve paid a premium for it.

                                You’re not making reasonable arguments, you’re making up facts and playing the strawman. You’ve given a few people some lectures recently for talking out of their arse, to be fair somewhat justifiably, in this case you really need to give yourself one.
                                Might wanna stow the sarcasm there chief.

                                My mate bought his Spec R, full aero, genuine kms, proper mint S15 in Jan or Feb this year for $16,000. How much do you think that car is worth now? I'd say he would be quite easily able to get low to mid 30s for it. If not more.

                                I was going to buy an acquaintance's S15 because he moved over to London early-mid last year. ADM Spec GT, 120kms, not heaps of mods, good condition. $14k was what he wanted. How much is that car worth now do you think? A p plate legal ADM 15 with relatively low kms. Probably 30k right?

                                I sold my S13 to a couple from Wollongong. Shit paint, barely running N/A motor, but awesome suspension/brakes etc. Unregistered. They paid $6.5k. How much do you expect to pay for an N/A silvia right now? I'd say at least $10k for a rough one but probably more. I sold that in April-ish this year and people were telling me that I was crazy asking that much. Also worth pointing out that they literally pillaged their super to buy the fucking thing.

                                As nopistons points out, its not 40 year olds buying these cars. Browse though the JDM FB groups and its all 20 year olds complaining about paying 4k a year to insure these fucking heaps that they bought.

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