We allowed to dicuss the Todd Wilkes case yet?

[fro]

Called the Westmead Coroners Court to find out about getting the coroners report, or a summary, or the recommendations, or something.

This is not a complaint against the Coroners Court, this is simply the state of play if you want to pursue this:

The coroners recommendations are yet to be transcribed.
They will take a while to be transcribed (upwards of a month).
I would have to apply (in writing) with the reasons why I want to see the coroners findings.
I would have to pay the $7.90 per page to recieve the findings.

I'm pursuing a statement/information through CAMS to see if they have something prepared for event directors and participants to help us understand what has and will be put in place to prevent this sort fo thing happening again.

[Saru]

Taking the other side of Spac's devil's advocate argument - what about the organisers' Duty of Care to the competitors? Don't they have a responsibility for the safety of the competitors?

It would seem the whole event, not just Ter-Vel, was full of novice competitors and I'm guessing that Todd was one, too. Don't the organisers have some sort of responsibility to ensure that the novices are looked after?

---end of response to devil's advocate---

At the end of the day, doesn't responsibility for any meet come down to the Event Director/Clerk of Course? I've seen reports blaming Cabin, the Stewards, CAMS but what about the CoC?

I realise this was 2001 and my understanding of CAMS stuff only starts with 2003/4 but was 2001 the "bad old days" when anyone could be a CoC or Steward? Was it significantly easier than it is now? If so, CAMS have already ramped up their requirements for event organisers/officials licences.

[jesus]

-On the morning of the event, the organisers were running late and ran a minimal drivers briefing. Instructions were:
- no practise runs,
- get off the track as quick as possible to let the next person through.

Q, i was actually in attendance as a competitor at the event in my rx7, and i clearly remember the cams guy saying "your gunna gun it round the turn, go as quick as u can down the straight and break where the marker is and pull up before the wall, it might be a little bit hairy but you should all be ok"

[fro]

Taking the other side of Spac's devil's advocate argument - what about the organisers' Duty of Care to the competitors? Don't they have a responsibility for the safety of the competitors?

Spac and I had a discussion about this yesterday. We discussed it from the point of view of road event and Special Stage Rally competitors.

The Event Director/Clerk of Course/Event Checker each have a responsibility to ensure that there is some risk management in place for the event. Everything has a risk, but it's recognising, evaluating and if possible, mitigating that risk that is the requirement.

I am a Event Director/Clerk of Course. I run a rally on a road next to a cliff. I recognise that having the road next to the cliff increases the risk of an accident. I evaluate that this would also increase the severity of the accident, should it happen.

My Event Checker (and I) mitigate (some of) that risk by informing the competitors that the cliff is there, and that the risk and severity of an accident is increased (Triple Caution!!! Big Cliff, Do Not Overshoot).

By following those steps, I've lived up to a decent portion of my requirement for Duty of Care. Whether this assesment/risk management took place in this event is unkown (by me, anyway).

At the end of the day, doesn't responsibility for any meet come down to the Event Director/Clerk of Course? I've seen reports blaming Cabin, the Stewards, CAMS but what about the CoC?

I realise this was 2001 and my understanding of CAMS stuff only starts with 2003/4 but was 2001 the "bad old days" when anyone could be a CoC or Steward? Was it significantly easier than it is now? If so, CAMS have already ramped up their requirements for event organisers/officials licences.

Saru, welcome to the revolution. You are right, in that 2001 was just when official accreditation and officials training was just starting to be an issue. My memory is hazy as to whether I first heard about accreditation for CAMS Officials pre- or post- the TW incident, but I recall this being pushed by Federal Government requirements for the Sports grants that CAMS recieves.

[edo]

Fark I hope to hell that if I die crashing my car in some sort of event that no one will argue whether it was my fault or someone elses. I choose to do what I do & I take full responsibility...if I fark up can someone make sure the coroner gets this message so that it doesnt fuck up motorsport for the rest of you guys.

[fro]

Fark I hope to hell that if I die crashing my car in some sort of event that no one will argue whether it was my fault or someone elses. I choose to do what I do & I take full responsibility...if I fark up can someone make sure the coroner gets this message so that it doesnt fuck up motorsport for the rest of you guys.

Edo, it's almost invariably not you that causes the kerfuffle anyway. It's your mother/father/wife/husband/brother/sister/life-partner that thinks you were taken before your time, and has to find someone to blame that isn't you.

Beign both a competitor and an event director, I worry a lot more when I'm organising an event than when I'm competing in it.

[Spac]

2001 was the start of the transition period.
I obviously don't know enough to say this with any certainty, but I think CAMS (the organisation) is sounding fairly well blameless on the whole thing. They've got a raft of rules and regulations that were ignored - at which point the (unnamed) CoC, the (unnamed) Stewards, and the (unnamed) scrutineers made themselves sitting ducks when they let these things happen.

But like I said, we just don't know enough to make these assesments accurately - we've heard that CAMS specifically granted a permit to allow the track to be run in that direction, and we've also heard that the direction was changed at the last minute...
I'm going to suggest that only one of those statements can be correct...

As to the devil's advocate side of things, you're right, legally they do have a DoC. But we all know that the concept of DoC is unlimited ("The CoC did not ensure that the competitor's vehicle had all wheel nuts checked for tightness before it left the service area" is actually a very mild example), and most/all of us also feel that the concept of DoC as it is currently being intrepreted is a severe corruption of the basic premise of responsibility.
No matter what the organiser's DoC is, no matter what the organiser's responsibilites are, the competitor still must take responsibility for their own actions - and that includes the unforeseeable, like another competitor's wheel coming off and hitting them in the head, or an organiser setting up a highly dodgy track that's incontravention of numerous rules and common-sense.

Even if every single person involved in the running of TerVel is thrown into gaol for a million years, Todd is still dead, and nothing is ever going to change that. Same goes for the girl at the Lighthouse GP, Senna, and everyone else who has ever been killed at a motorsport event.

[jesus]

Not sure of this has been posted or discussed here or even previously anywhere else, is the real reason the track was switched (180 degrees) was because of the rubber on turn 1? The story I have heard is that any drag events that took place at EC (from a certain date), the promoters were responsible for cleaning the track (of rubber from burnouts etc) so that turn 1 had a consistent grip to it? Sorry if this has been discussed before. Was trying to gauge how true this "story" is.

i was told they reversed it because that way they could get 600m before the timing device insted of 400.

thats the problem with this one, there are so many "i saw, i hurd, i was there, my unkle works for cams and he said" youl never get to the bottom of this one

[fro]

thats the problem with this one, there are so many "i saw, i hurd, i was there, my unkle works for cams and he said" youl never get to the bottom of this one

Even the CAMS sources contradict the maps, which contradicts the Supp Regs, which contradicts...

But even having lots of documentation for the one event that contradicts itself should be documented somewhere if the procedures set down by CAMS were followed. Obviously, those procedures weren't followed.

[Camma]

Even if every single person involved in the running of TerVel is thrown into gaol for a million years, Todd is still dead, and nothing is ever going to change that. Same goes for the girl at the Lighthouse GP, Senna, and everyone else who has ever been killed at a motorsport event.

I agree. As long as the crash is investigated and causes are established so sensible changes can be made to reduce the risk of it occuring again. I suppose Motorsport is a learning exprience for both drivers, organisers and authorities. As everyone has said proper risk assesments need to be made to ensure that whilst racing is dangerous the risk of a fatal crash is reduced.

[edo]

Edo, it's almost invariably not you that causes the kerfuffle anyway. It's your mother/father/wife/husband/brother/sister/life-partner that thinks you were taken before your time, and has to find someone to blame that isn't you.

Beign both a competitor and an event director, I worry a lot more when I'm organising an event than when I'm competing in it.

Fro, you can send them all my post & tell them to shut the fuck up...Id hate to think that it would happen like that. Im a firm believer that in life you make your choices & you need to deal with the consequences of those choices...I think all my relatives & friends would know what I wanted.

[IMOA]

Fark I hope to hell that if I die crashing my car in some sort of event that no one will argue whether it was my fault or someone elses. I choose to do what I do & I take full responsibility...if I fark up can someone make sure the coroner gets this message so that it doesnt fuck up motorsport for the rest of you guys.

While I agree with you to a certain extent you also cannot absolve the organisors of their responsibility. To take an extreme example, lets say you are competing in Rally NT and it had a stage which crossed a bridge. On the night before the stage is to be completed the bridge is stolen. The organisors are aware this has occured but don't bother telling the competitors as they figure it will make for great photos as the cars fly dukes of hazard style over a 100 foot ravine. Unfortunately your non turbo S15 doesn't have much go and you and your co-driver tumble to a firey death. Now, In those circumstances would you want the organisors to take some responsibility? I know I would.

Yes, thats extreme but the point is to highlight that the organisors of events do have to take responsibility where they have failed their duty of care. This is not to say that if someone dies while competing in a motorsport event that it is someones fault and that someone muct take responsibility, only that if this duty of care is breeched that the organisors should. The question is therefore not one of whether Todd has to take responsibility for his actions (he has) but whether or not the duty of care was breeched and the organisors must take responsibility for theirs. FWIW, given the competitors involved in the event (was any licencing required rollin?), the nature of the event and the cars being driven my view is that that duty of care was breeched and it's time for the organisors to take their share of responsibility. This is also the view of the coronor.

[a777]

I am a little hesitant to post in this thread , but here goes:-

Todd's car was very well known, it had just won horsepower heroes the month before, had been on prime time news, had multiple magazine articles. It was also an evolution of the ute. Most people interested in the modified car scene would have known the car. Anyone looking under the bonnet (or boot!) would realise it had some horsepower.

Q raises an excellent point regarding braking distance at a dragstrip. There are MANY people that compete at dragstrips (at a test n tune or championship racing) that have no idea on the length of the braking area, most do not even look at the braking area before they commence their run. Why? Because you are at a professional motorsport venue, there are ANDRA officials, there are dragstrip officials, and it is reasonable to expect that there is sufficient braking area for a crash to not occur, and that if you run out of braking area there is sufficient measures in place to pull you to a halt.

This can be directed to anyone considering racing on a track for the first time, however, Edo, if/when you take the Falcon to the dragstrip would you do a practise run down the track at a slow speed to make sure you have enough room to pull up? Would you walk/drive down to the braking area so that you could determine that it was safe for you? Would you measure the braking area and then work out how much room you needed to pull up from your estimated speed? How would you calculate that?

If the dragstrip was to install a new wall that is say 100m from the finish line because they were using the drag strip for driver training before hand and had sectioned off both ends of the track to allow them two areas to work in, and then you race down at 200km/h and cross the finish line only to see a wall a short distance in front of you, who would you blame?

The same applies to sprint days at various race tracks. Do you do your first lap very slowly checking out the track, making sure it is safe? Do you look for oil/debris on the track? Do you look at the gravel traps and determine what is the best angle to approach in order to slow the car? Do you ensure that the other drivers have cars that are safe enough to be on the track with you?

Yes, I believe there is responsibility on both sides, but in most cases where we participate in motorsport especially at an amateur level (sprint days, test n tunes at drag strips) we rely heavily upon track officials/national officials to ensure that we have a reasonably safe environment.

I would be very interested to read the coroner's report.

Rest In Peace Todd

[IMOA]

The same applies to sprint days at various race tracks. Do you do your first lap very slowly checking out the track, making sure it is safe? Do you look for oil/debris on the track? Do you look at the gravel traps and determine what is the best angle to approach in order to slow the car? Do you ensure that the other drivers have cars that are safe enough to be on the track with you?

Actually I do take the first couple of laps very slowly so I know where every marshall is and take note of any changes to the track since I last raced there. I also do look at the run off areas be they gravel traps or grass so I know what is where, which direction I should be heading if I run out of room and where every wall/obstacle is. In our series it's only the WRX's who try to set FTD on the first lap and remodel their cars 100 metres after going through the timing beacon.

[Brenton_s15]

Can't speak for EDO.

The same applies to sprint days at various race tracks. Do you do your first lap very slowly checking out the track, making sure it is safe? Do you look for oil/debris on the track?

You bet your arse I do! Every session, I do a full re-con lap before hooking it up.

Do you look at the gravel traps and determine what is the best angle to approach in order to slow the car?

No. That is a given. It is best to not need them although if you're going in, try to do it front on and straight.

Do you ensure that the other drivers have cars that are safe enough to be on the track with you?

I approach unknown cars and drivers with extreme caution and always assume that they are not. I expect them to do the same with me.