Road Safety - How to get policies for safer roads, not increased revenue.

[GT4_Jase]

Yeah, NSW has yearly inspections(pink slips)
Although, cars under3(maybe 5?) years old I think are exempt.

[SuperBoRi]

well one thing I have found that the ADG is lacking at the moment is a loud spoken persistent secretary, I am not having a go at Secoh at all, good on ya mate, but we need someone with more time on their hands and the willingness to shout a little bit with a good knowledge base. There are issues that we are close to agreement on (and backed with good quality debate) its time to start getting them out there and heard.

Another thing that I might suggest is to dance with the devil. By this I mean every time that scruby says something that we AGREE with (which plain and simple some of his ideas I do agree with) we get our mention alongside of him. Once we have a little bit of publicity on our side we can start branching in our own direction. Remember - its not all about sooking and moaning, we have to be level headed in anything we do, give credit where its due.

Also: any government actions that are taken that are within our realm (be they changing a law, policy, tendering for reconstruction projects etc) we SHOULD have a comment flying to newspapers within HOURS of finding out, no pissfarting around, quick debate and get a story out. This means that the newspapers will have another expert (which they love) who can have a scoop for them and help to fill out their mundane middle sections without hiring extra journalists. if someone reads something about roads in the morning get online and have a response written before the journalists go home for the night and tomorrows papers are being printed. 1 day later and the topic is gone, 3 hours later you may just have a chance of a followup the next day.

[T99]

An idea which doesn't make the pollie dip into their coffers
- don't allow any car on the road that isn't comprehensively insured
- insurance on vehicle that caused the accident to be void if dangerous driving (including excessive speed), allow private insurance investigators/assessors.

So, insurance companies don't pay out as much and there is more onus on the driver/owner to ensure that they drive responsibly. Politician looks good because they are trying to do something about the road toll which doesn't impact the taxpayer through taxes. With the money the insurer could save on payouts, they can hire insurance assessors to deal with each reported case thus reducing the impact on the police system in taking reports, allowing police to focus on other areas.

Add to that a longer and more expensive (both financially and time wise) licensing system with harsher penalties for dangerous driving.

[Camma]

Not here either Bozz (ACT)

[GT4_Jase]

T99 - I completely disagree with your first two paragraphs.

Insurance companies are already rejecting claims on slight technicalities.
You're basically stating that only the rich can drive.

It may not impact the taxpayer through taxes much, but will most certainly leave a large dent in their wallet having been forced to shell out for insurance that they may well not require.
It's similar with compulsory third party(personal), but personal injury is much more expensive than property damage.
In my mind, people without comprehensive insurance should drive sensibly anyway - because there is NO cover at all. What's the difference between that and not being covered because of dangerous driving?
They have the ability to decide themselves whether or not it is required cover for them, and accept the consequences if they are not covered.

You wouldn't like it if you bought a computer, and regardless of whether you need/want it or not, were forced to buy a monitor with it would you? Same scenario....

I agree with making a licence harder to get, but not necessarily more expensive...unless the costs were for real driver education/training.

Penalties for dangerous driving should also be increased, but the problem with that is at the moment, police have too much power to charge "at their discrepancy".
So an offence that may be silly but not really dangerous, could be let off as a warning, or even taken the other way and said dangerous driving with the same penalty as some really dangerous stuff.

But yes, penalties should be increased for stupid and dangerous driving.

[smellytofu]

Yeah, NSW has yearly inspections(pink slips)
Although, cars under3(maybe 5?) years old I think are exempt.

Not that it's made one diddly squat of difference. I've seen dealers do a pink slip without even seeing the car. That's how good it was. (and it's exempt from this if it's under 3 yrs)

[Jim]

well one thing I have found that the ADG is lacking at the moment is a loud spoken persistent secretary, I am not having a go at Secoh at all, good on ya mate, but we need someone with more time on their hands and the willingness to shout a little bit with a good knowledge base. There are issues that we are close to agreement on (and backed with good quality debate) its time to start getting them out there and heard.

I agree and it's a big problem for me. As I work full time and also partake in evening studies I have very little time let alone to become the serial pest that is required to get any kind of media or government attention.

I have written an ADG press release currently being savaged by the members so if it's not too far off the mark it'll be out in the next few days.

[hamish]

An idea which doesn't make the pollie dip into their coffers
- don't allow any car on the road that isn't comprehensively insured
- insurance on vehicle that caused the accident to be void if dangerous driving (including excessive speed), allow private insurance investigators/assessors.

T99, make point 1 Third Party Property insurance and I'll agree with you, if your car is only worth 2k comprehensive is a waste of money, TPP covers you for damage to other peoples property.

Totally disagree with your second point, half the point of insurance is to cover yourself if you fcukup, & even with the best of intentions & training that's still going to happen, I don't see how bankrupting people because they got it wrong and crunched that new merc will help, It would most likely clog up the courts with an avalanch of increased litigation too.

Anyway, we should keep away from too much nitpicking

[EXWRX]

well one thing I have found that the ADG is lacking at the moment is a loud spoken persistent secretary, I am not having a go at Secoh at all, good on ya mate, but we need someone with more time on their hands and the willingness to shout a little bit with a good knowledge base. There are issues that we are close to agreement on (and backed with good quality debate) its time to start getting them out there and heard.

Another thing that I might suggest is to dance with the devil. By this I mean every time that scruby says something that we AGREE with (which plain and simple some of his ideas I do agree with) we get our mention alongside of him. Once we have a little bit of publicity on our side we can start branching in our own direction. Remember - its not all about sooking and moaning, we have to be level headed in anything we do, give credit where its due.

Also: any government actions that are taken that are within our realm (be they changing a law, policy, tendering for reconstruction projects etc) we SHOULD have a comment flying to newspapers within HOURS of finding out, no pissfarting around, quick debate and get a story out. This means that the newspapers will have another expert (which they love) who can have a scoop for them and help to fill out their mundane middle sections without hiring extra journalists. if someone reads something about roads in the morning get online and have a response written before the journalists go home for the night and tomorrows papers are being printed. 1 day later and the topic is gone, 3 hours later you may just have a chance of a followup the next day.

I agree entirely with this approach - if all the ADG does is attack Scruby it will get some publicity for its entertainment value, but will peter out after that. Personally I find myelf agreeing with some of what he says, so I would rather work with that.

Press releases need to fly thick and fast, but I understand that this can be difficult when the ADG has members to consult. Scruby just shoots from the hip.

ADG needs to find a hook to hang its hat on. As distasteful as it is, tragedies like the R34 incident provide that opportunity. Alternatively, why not 'manufacture' an event to gain publicity? How about a rally to parliament house calling for govt action? Or an ADG sponsored track day inviting P platers to take it to the track with instructors?

What is becoming apparent is that there is no silver bullet here - a range of measures across a broad spectrum of areas is required to achieve change. IMO the purpose of the ADG is to maintain the momentum.

[Grumpy Rooster]

Here's a small news article about research on whether a dragstrip in Canberra would be beneficial or detrimental to driver attitudes.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...1/s1250635.htm

I like the way they have come to a conclusion based on a massive sample size of just 180 people.

[Babalouie]

T99, make point 1 Third Party Property insurance and I'll agree with you, if your car is only worth 2k comprehensive is a waste of money, TPP covers you for damage to other peoples property.

Totally disagree with your second point, half the point of insurance is to cover yourself if you fcukup, & even with the best of intentions & training that's still going to happen, I don't see how bankrupting people because they got it wrong and crunched that new merc will help, It would most likely clog up the courts with an avalanch of increased litigation too.

Anyway, we should keep away from too much nitpicking

I think T99's idea is a good one but [tabloid mode] there will be some 17yr old apprentice living in a dodgy area that needs to drive his Commodore so that he can feed his 25 children, and if he can't afford insurance, he can't work, and certain newspaers will have headlines like "Insurance Debacle Causes Family to Starve", and hence no polly will touch that with a 10 foot pole.

[/tabloid mode]

[Southo]

Last thing we should be doing is making any "property damage" or "comprehensive" insurance compulsory...

If policies were compulsory, that means all people can be insured - even those that are such bad risks that they cost insurance companies FAAAR more than they ever pay. So unless you want to sudsidise these people out of your own pocket (ie, thru much higher premiums) then don't even joke about making this insurance compulsory....

If you don't beleive me - look at the costs of other compulsory insurance schemes and the "great" record they have in keeping premiums down....

[Babalouie]

Last thing we should be doing is making any "property damage" or "comprehensive" insurance compulsory...

If policies were compulsory, that means all people can be insured - even those that are such bad risks that they cost insurance companies FAAAR more than they ever pay. So unless you want to sudsidise these people out of your own pocket (ie, thru much higher premiums) then don't even joke about making this insurance compulsory....

If you don't beleive me - look at the costs of other compulsory insurance schemes and the "great" record they have in keeping premiums down....

Good point, like NSW green slip...

[Southo]

* Nods !!

Just did an extract of all Australian.vehicles with a pwr/weight ratio of 125kw per tonne or higher..

Here is a small random excerpt... this list looks OK,
but it's when you look at the ones UNDER 125kw/Tonne... lots get through...

Make --- Model --- Variant --- Series --- Cyl --- Pwr/Wgt
ALFA ROMEO --- 147 --- GTA --- --- V6 --- 134.9
ALFA ROMEO --- 156 --- GTA --- --- V6 --- 126.0
AUDI --- A6 --- 4.2 QUATTRO --- --- V8 --- 127.2
AUDI --- A8 --- 4.2 QUATTRO --- 4E --- V8 --- 138.2
AUDI --- RS4 --- --- --- TV6 --- 167.7
AUDI --- RS6 --- AVANT --- 4B --- TV8 --- 176.1
AUDI --- S4 --- 2.7 --- --- TV6 --- 129.1
AUDI --- S4 --- --- B6 --- V8 --- 148.4
AUDI --- S6 --- 4.2 QUATTRO --- 4B --- V8 --- 144.1
AUDI --- S8 --- --- --- V8 --- 151.4
BMW --- 7 --- 45I --- E65 --- V8 --- 126.0
BMW --- 7 --- 60LI --- E66 --- V12 --- 146.6
BMW --- M3 --- --- E46 --- 6 --- 165.2
BMW --- M3 --- --- E46 --- 6 --- 165.2
BMW --- Z4 --- 3.0I --- E85 --- 6 --- 125.5
CHRYSLER --- VIPER --- GTS --- --- V10 --- 213.7
DAIMLER --- V8 --- LWB --- --- V8 --- 126.3
FERRARI --- F50 --- --- --- V12 --- 311.4
FORD --- FAIRMONT --- --- BA --- V8 --- 125.9
FORD --- FALCON --- RTV --- BA --- V8 --- 128.8
FORD --- FALCON --- XL --- BA --- V8 --- 126.4
FORD --- FALCON --- XR6T --- BA --- T6 --- 136.8
FORD --- FALCON --- XR6T --- BA --- T6 --- 141.7
FORD --- FALCON --- XR8 --- AUII --- V8 --- 128.3
FORD --- FALCON --- XR8 --- AUIII --- V8 --- 141.1
FORD --- FALCON --- XR8 --- BA --- V8 --- 148.8
FORD --- FALCON --- XR8 --- BA --- V8 --- 144.4
FORD --- FALCON --- XT --- BA --- V8 --- 125.9
FORD --- MUSTANG --- COBRA --- --- V8 --- 148.4
HOLDEN --- BERLINA --- --- VX --- V8 --- 132.4
HOLDEN --- CALAIS --- --- VY --- V8 --- 134.7
HOLDEN --- CAPRICE --- --- WHII --- V8 --- 129.1
HOLDEN --- COMMODORE --- EXECUTIVE --- VX --- V8 --- 147.3
HOLDEN --- COMMODORE --- EXECUTIVE --- VTII --- V8 --- 136.6
HOLDEN --- CREWMAN --- SS --- VYII --- V8 --- 126.1
HOLDEN --- MONARO --- CV8 --- V2 --- V8 --- 137.2
HOLDEN --- STATESMAN --- V8 --- WK --- V8 --- 135.4
HOLDEN SPECIAL VEHICLE --- MALOO --- --- VS --- V8 --- 125.9
HONDA --- INTEGRA --- TYPE-R --- 4TH GEN --- 4 --- 126.7
HONDA --- NSX --- --- --- V6 --- 141.5
HONDA --- S2000 --- --- --- 4 --- 139.8
JAGUAR --- S TYPE --- V8 SE --- --- V8 --- 129.1
JAGUAR --- SOVEREIGN --- 4 --- --- V8 --- 126.3
LOTUS --- ELISE --- --- --- 4 --- 127.5
MAZDA --- MX-5 --- SP --- NB --- T4 --- 131.5
MAZDA --- RX7 --- TWIN TURBO --- --- RT2 --- 134.4
MAZDA --- RX-8 --- --- --- R2 --- 136.3
MERCEDES-BENZ --- 500 --- SL --- --- V8 --- 138.4
MERCEDES-BENZ --- 600 --- SEL --- --- V12 --- 137.0
MERCEDES-BENZ --- SLK --- 32 KOMPRESSOR AMG --- 202 --- SV6 --- 173.9
NISSAN --- 350Z --- TOURING --- Z33 --- V6 --- 140.8
NISSAN --- GT-R --- --- --- T6 --- 134.0
PORSCHE --- BOXSTER --- --- --- 6 --- 128.6
PORSCHE --- CAYENNE --- TURBO --- --- TV8 --- 140.6
SUBARU --- IMPREZA --- WRX (AWD) --- MY99 --- T4 --- 126.0
SUBARU --- LIBERTY --- B4 --- MY02 --- T4 --- 127.1
TOYOTA --- CELICA --- SX --- --- 4 --- 125.0
TOYOTA --- CELICA --- ZR --- --- 4 --- 125.0
VOLVO --- 8 --- 50 R --- --- T5 --- 125.0
VOLVO --- S60 --- R --- MY04 --- T5 --- 134.4
VOLVO --- V70 --- R --- MY04 --- T5 --- 128.4

[Southo]

Grrr formatting is a bitch !!!!

Ones that fall under 125kW/Tonne

HSV GTS VT 4D SEDAN 5.7L = 124.7kw/Tonne
SUBARU IMPREZA WRX CLUB SPEC SEDAN 2.0L = 124.5kW/Tonne
HSV MALOO VS UTILITY 5.0L =123.9kW/Tonne
HSV SV CLUBSPORT VP 4D SEDAN 5.0L = 124.6kW/Tonne
MITSUBISHI 3000 GT HATCHBACK 3.0L = 122.1kW/Tonne
MITSUBISHI LANCER GSR (4WD) CC 4D SEDAN = 121.8kW/Tonne
SUBARU LIBERTY GT 4D WAGON 2.0L = 121.6kW/Tonne
FORD FALCON XR8 SPRINT ED SEDAN 4.9L = 121.6kW/Tonne
FORD FALCON GT EBII SEDAN 4.9L = 121.1kW / Tonne
FORD TE50 AU SEDAN 4.9L = 120.2kW/Tonne
AUDI S3 1.8 HATCHBACK 1.8L = 120.0kW/Tonne
FORD FALCON GT EL SEDAN 4.9L = 119.9kW/Tonne
RENAULT CLIO SPORT HATCHBACK 2.0L = 119.8kW/Tonne

to name just a few...
lots Of other V8 Falcadores and WRX's, AMG mercs and the like...

Maybe 115kW/Tonne should be the cut off point ???