Towing car on car trailor help!!

[Nafe]

Rowds - I just checked the trailer this weekend and the apparent weight (according to the papers anyway) is only 530kgs. So that helps a bit. I think the VS is around 1400kgs or so (lighter than the VT-VZ and AU-BAs).

The suggestion of the VR/AU was in reply to the original suggestion of a VL Commodore. Given a decent trailer and the R31 would probably tip the scales somewhere near 1800kgs, it doesn't leave a lot of options left.

What's the theory behind having the weights similar or less on the trailer end. I'm assuming simple laws of physics when you have a greater mass pushing you from behind (e.g. 1400kgs car towing 2000kgs), but does suspension, brakes, and towing capacity come into it at all? Assuming your Ute weighs only 1300kgs, by adding extra weight into the back it's aiding in weighing down the front vehicle, but also disadvantaging in having to lug an additional 300kgs?

Dunno if I'm making sense, it's been a long day of fighting the post-xmas sales crowds (yes, I am stupid! :D)

[towie]

Nath, what do you think of the philsophy of a truck using a Falcon as brakes, even if the Falcon happens to be a V8 SuperCar??? Still weighs the same hey??? Just the brakes will lock up better... :p

[DYNOSTEVE]

tow

do yourself a favour and buy a 4x4 like a 80 or 100 series landcruiser i use a 100 series lexus and it's the best thing i ever bought, tows very well doesn't get trailer sways and is totally legal and insurance safe.

[Nafe]

Nath, what do you think of the philsophy of a truck using a Falcon as brakes, even if the Falcon happens to be a V8 SuperCar??? Still weighs the same hey??? Just the brakes will lock up better... :p

The VS has ABS, no locking of brakes at all! :p

[towie]

The VS has ABS, no locking of brakes at all! :p

OK, just brake pulsating...

[MRMOPARMAN]

i have towed a few valiants/datsuns/celica/siggy wagon behind my dads stocky EA with heavy as hire trailers.. even with the vals, it towed fine keeping it around 80kmh (didnt have enuff grunt on gas to go higher)

[fatgts]

lol gold towie

hes not here today but ill tell him tommorw

[Spac]

This debate is pointless unless you define what sort of towing you're planning on doing, the trailer, how much towing you're doing, and how often.
And it's only going to be confusing until we get the rules right...

1. The Laws. Simple. For a CAR (not a commercial vehicle): For a trailer with brakes, the maximum allowable weight of trailer + towed car is whatever the towing car manufacturer specifies.
If the towing car manufacturer does not specify anything, then it is (weight of tow car x 1.5).
For a commercial vehicle, it's (GVM x 0.66). (Actually, I'm not certain about the exact figure - I have 0.65, two thirds and 0.70 all in my head, so I've gone for the middle one).

2. Tow Cars
OK, nothing beats a big 4WD for towing. They're also lousy on fuel, cost heaps to register, and a generally crap to live with day-to-day. If I had the space and the money to do so, there'd be a late model Patrol or LandCruiser sitting in my front yard waiting for the next rally... But I don't, so I don't.

Beyond that, you have a lot of options... The simple version is that most late-ish model cars will cope, provided you don't expect too much from them. Certainly a VN+ Commodore is illegal before it is incapable.
My old Volvo 240 wagon (about 100kW, and 1340kgs) did LOTS of distance with car trailers on the back - most of the time, the total trailer weight was around 1500kgs, but sometimes it was significantly (and illegally) more. It was slow up steep hills, but it never even suggested that it couldn't make it up them. It didn't get hot, and was happy to sit on 100kph on most highways, and 110kph down the freeway was not a drama.

I've found a lot of utes to be lousy with trailers on the back. They're too stiff in the suspension, too light in the rear, and all the rest. And most (all?) Jap utes are actually pretty gutless, so they struggle a bit.

Old Falcons with the Borg Warner 35 auto are awful - they pretty much refuse to change down gear, even when it's more than obvious that they need to... The Volvo suffered from the same blight, but wasn't as bad (Volvo did a marginally better job of getting that particular POS auto to co-operate, I guess).

3. Trailers.
Hire trailers are shit. They're always over-built to buggery (so when people try to move earth-moving equipment on them they don't bend...). It's easy to make a strong, useable trailer weigh <400kgs with some intelligent design. Hire trailers are also usually poorly maintained...

Dual axle adds to the weight, but also removes the need to use light-truck tyres, and is more stable at speed. Some people claim that if you get a blow-out on a single axle trailer you're instantly dead, but I'm living proof that it simply isn't true... Actually, the time we got a trailer blow-out, was in the Volvo at 100kph, and it was grossly illegal (wasn't my car, my loading, nor my car on the back at the time!).

Electric Brakes Are The Shit. They can be unreliable, but they work SOOOOO much better than over-ride brakes, that it's not funny...
One of the big dramas with over-ride brakes is that the spring in the coupling is usually far too stiff for the load rating of the coupling - so you really need to be standing on the middle pedal before the trailer bothers to help you... This problem is exaserbated in hire trailers, which typically have a load rating of several tons....

Unsprung trailers save weight, but are c%^ts to tow when they're empty. I guess some circuit cars might not be real happy on an unsprung trailer too, but road and rally cars are fine.

4. Loading.
This is where lots of people get it wrong, nearly kill themselves and think that they need an F100.
You want the trailer to be front heavy, but not overly so. I have a mate who uses bathroom scales under the jockey wheel to aim for exactly 80kgs on the towball of his EA Falcon, and he reckons he's never had a remotely tank-slapping moment (and I believe him!).
Keep the weight over the trailer wheels as much as possible - doing things like putting spare wheels into the towed car's boot is going to increase the chances of it getting ugly... The WORST experience I've ever had towing was with a box trailer! It was rear heavy (maximum possible pendulum effect and takes weight off the tow car's rear wheels) - at 105kph, it was literally taking up four lanes of road...
If the tow car is shaking, it is almost certainly because there's not enough weight on the tow ball of the tow car. One of the tricks when we were doing illegal things with the Volvo was to place "too much" weight onto the towball - but remember that this takes weight off the front of the tow car, so steering and braking are reduced! Highly not recommended, but it works well if you do it in moderation.

5. Attitude.
Most people's failing...
Don't expect to be able to do 110kph over broken, twisty tarmac if you don't have a F250 which is correctly laden. I'd done some 'stupid' things, and I've seen many 'stupider' things done when towing, but I've never even had a "brown pants" moment (much less a crash) simply because I drive super-defensively, and quite cautiously... Seems so obvious, but many people seem to think "yeah, it'll be right" and try to drive like they're in a GTi Swift without a trailer on it, and it ends in tears....

You need to accept that you're carting a lot of weigh, and that it takes you longer to accelerate, long to stop, and that corners might have to be taken more slowly - big deal!

Similarly, I've towed a 164 Volvo (1370kgs) on my father-in-law's trailer (800kgs) with a V6 929 (1410kgs) and it wasn't the slightest bit of a drama, despite having no trailer brakes... I chose my route, chose my driving style, and used my brain. I was perfectly happy to move the Volvo across Canberra, but there's no way I'd even think of taking the same combination to Batemans Bay or similar...

The best car I've towed with was my mother-in-law's non-turbo BA XR-6. No electric brake controller didn't mean squat, even with an RX-4 on the back - we happily sat at 110 (often a bit more) from Geelong to Melbourne with the RX-4 on the trailer. DAZDA was overtaking other cars on the way to Bega rally last year with the not-a-120Y on the same unbraked trailer.... I'm not recommending it, just saying that it was possible, and that we all felt safe and confident in doing so - none of us are 'risk takers' when it comes to that sort of thing, and yet we all felt entirely comfortable.
I'm waiting for when decent BAs can be had for <$6k, then I'll probably buy one as a tow car - but it'll probably hard to find a manual wagon (NB: Autos are generally better for towing, just that I want a manual for the rest of the time...).

Towing a trailer is like life - use your eyes, use your brain, make your decisions based on maximising your lifespan, and you'll be fine.

[MRMOPARMAN]

very well said spac

[towie]

What I am saying has nothing to do with what you can and cant do... Just the legalility of it...

Just cause you can shoot someone, doesn't mean it's legal...

All the fatal accidents I have been to in my career, probally a few of them felt 'confident' enough to drive at 200+ and had prolly done it before...

It's the 'what if this happens' or 'should I' is about the far best bet in something bad no happening...

It's like, I will only take $100 with me while I'm walking around 'a' city tonight in case I get robbed...

If you are conserned about getting robbed, you wouldn't walk round with your life savings, hey???

Your life savings could be the car you run into or the life that might end, 'cause it felt OK'...

Just MO...

[Stix Zadinia]

and load the freaking trailer heavy on the drivers side. you see so many trailers on a massive lean driving down the freeway.. an accident waiting to happen

[CT]

Some 4wds are not good at towing. My tribute was under it's load limit and fitted with sway bars and it still got trailer sway and was lousy on the highway. My car is 890kg and trailer is 515kgs, dual axle with electric brakes. The XR8 on the other hand, is heavier, RWD and stiffer and with the 2300kg tow kit and the trailer balanced exactly the same but with more stuff on it, drives like a dream.

Spac, not sure about dual axle negating the need for light truck tyres either. I run them on XB GT wheels and they are excellent. Electric brakes and anti-sway kits make a big difference. I agree with Towie too as having a heavier, more stable car makes towing much easier, I just don't believe that necessarily means it has to be a 4WD.

[Spac]

Towie, how can you claim that you're just stating the legal situation, when you got the laws wrong?

[Nafe]

We use light truck tyres on our trailer (dual axle, with suspension and electric brakes).

Electric brakes are the shiznit - I assume all the in car controllers have the levelling gizmo and the manual override for the brakes? Works wonders if you ever get the wanders.

[towie]

Towie, how can you claim that you're just stating the legal situation, when you got the laws wrong?

How do you work that out???