Policeman shot in Victoria after pulling motorist over

[Captiva Fan]

I think it's easy to look at places like the UK where they never went down the Smokin' Joe Cop route many-many years ago & hence the crims didn't go & arm themselves as quickly; and then say that Australian cops don't need guns. However, the current Australian police have to cope with the idiocy of those that came before them; the 'arms race' began decades ago.

[Fatboy]

Certain elements of our society have no hesitation in shooting or stabbing an unarmed person. Visit any Sydney city nightclub for proof...

[ironhorse]

Agreed unarmed cops would be rediculous in todays Australia . It would and does work elsewhere in the world but we have been and are following a style of society where it is impossible.

[nui]

Condolences

[Gab]

Yeah I spose I understand what you guys are saying, but tazers & stun guns are pretty powerful weapons. I do realise though, that unfortunatley in today's society the police probably need to be armed.

Gab

[TonyJZX]

I think it's easy to look at places like the UK where they never went down the Smokin' Joe Cop route many-many years ago & hence the crims didn't go & arm themselves as quickly; and then say that Australian cops don't need guns.

Besides the UK example, what other nation has unarmed police?

In any case, when people say that general duty UK police are not armed, they don't mention that the English has some incredibly well trained 'urban SAS' rapid deployment SWAT type teams who ride high powered cars and vans and are armed with MP5s and auto rifles to take care of IRA or other kinds of armed criminals.

T.

[Ustasa]

The role of the police should never be blurred to resemble that of the military. We don't need paramilitary formations roaming the streets to take care of swede type morons armed with pistols at best.

There are very few instances where firepower greater then a pistol is needed to subdue a threat from criminal elements, whether it be a pisshead on a drunken rampage or thugs ram-raiding a jelwery store.

I feel deeply for the family of the police officer involved, however it does illustrate the need for better weapons training and being able to secure your own weapon in times of danger.

[phatdex1]

They found a speeding ticket in the guys car that was issued by the police officer 3 hours before. So it was the second time the guy had been pulled over that night by the same cop. And this is knox TMU who are the hardest in Vic to crack down on modified cars etc etc. I have been doing nothing and just coz of my P plates I have been majorly harassed. No one in their right mind would go anywhere near knox if they were young or driving a modded car. Now team this with the guy in question having a history of mental problems and this is the outcome.
Not excusing it, but for someone on the edge, the last thing u need is power tripping cops harassing you.

RIP to the police officer. No matter what he was doing he didnt deserve that.

[phatdex1]

Besides the UK example, what other nation has unarmed police?

Aren't Hong kong's police unarmed? I guess that would be coz of the british influence too. They may have them now that China has taken over. Dont know.

[Cplus]

Besides the UK example, what other nation has unarmed police?

In any case, when people say that general duty UK police are not armed, they don't mention that the English has some incredibly well trained 'urban SAS' rapid deployment SWAT type teams who ride high powered cars and vans and are armed with MP5s and auto rifles to take care of IRA or other kinds of armed criminals.

T.

UK Police are armed trust me.

The cops in westminster drive 540 beemers and carry LARGE automatic weapons on the street. Very intimidating. I do work within a stone's throw of New Scotland Yard however.

The suburban cops are different, but as was alluded to, there is two levels of cops.

The dudes in the Burbs drive Fiestas and carry plastic sticks :D

[dsmith]

The majority of cases where a police officer is shot in the US occurs when their sidearm is used against them. I believe it is also a requirement for a US police officer to wear a vest that is rated at a minimum to stop a bullet from their issued weapon.

If I were a cop, Im not sure I would feel comfertable with a loaded gun on my hip, exposed to the world with a quick release clip securing it to the holster. Especially since the gun is a Glock, which means all that is needed to shoot is to pull the trigger. Other designs have safety catches that most people would not know how to opperate without prior training, certainly not in the middle of a struggle with a copper determined to make sure you dont get the safety released.

[jmac]

"We don't need paramilitary formations roaming the streets to take care of swede type morons armed with pistols at best."

NO offense intended, but I have to question whether you have the faintest idea of the level of firepower some (definitely a minority) crims have. Granted it's not like some places (cough USA cough) but I can tell you categorically that there are crims armed with more than pistols.

In any case, the thing I feel is the police shouldn't have 'barely adequate' firepower, they should have better. I'd be outraged to think that a police officer lost their life due to being outgunned. As rare as it might be, one officers life is far too many to lose. I don't mean that I think they need to drive around in armoured personell carriers with 50 calibre weapons on turrets (though I'd not oppose it if another Macquarie Fields shithead convention took place) but they have a right to protect themselves. And to protect us from those who pose a threat.

I'd also welcome commentary on specific alternatives, in this case I suppose capsicum spray, batons, and tazers. my thoughts are along the lines of:

I can tell you with complete certainty that capsicum only works marginally and if anything only buys a little time. If the agressor is angry enough (adrenaline will do it) or worse, on some potent stimulants, it's possible it won't incapacitate them (even moderately). But look at the amount of flak the police 'cop' (pardon the pun) when they use the spray anyways.

Batons can work, in certain scenarios, but it's still damn risky (I can personally attest to knowledge of a certain person who was in some sort of amphetamine psychosis who was struck more than once (on the leg, to try and bring them down without giving them brain damage etc) - eventually accidentally dislocating their patella, and they kept attacking like it was a mosquito bite (it wasn't apparent that they had suffered the dislocation till after they were successfully subdued.) And you can imagine how that would play out in court, even though the person was a direct and grave threat to the people he was attacking.

Tasers - the hand held devices, where you have to be in close proximity - complete crap. Many don't have the oomph to subdue more determined attackers. To say nothing of the risk to the officer if they have to get in that close. The ones that fire hooks that attach to the skin generally have more oomph and also allow a safer distance to be kept, and are a damn effective option. BUT they do require the time (and sometimes a little bit of luck with the aim) to draw and then deploy.

Bottom line is that none of them (hell even firearms, as has been tragically demonstrated) are super safe and effective. They still work best when there is another officer/whatever present. Police need to be paired up for safety, and if in doubt get more backup.

They aren't paid to be punching bags, they are out there making the country safer (and I'm sure they aren't all perfect angels, not even close) and frankly without them, there's enough sociopaths who would drag our whole society into a new dark ages given half a chance.

--

I'm certainly no angel, and neither are some of my friends, but one area where we differed a little was the win it or wear it attitude. If we were doing something stupid and got caught, we'd cop it on the chin. Wouldn't necessarily throw in the towel and fess up (and for the record I'm talking mild hoonery stuff, not violent crime or drugs or something) but would face up to it. My personal opinion is that if some attacks a police officer, they deserve a bloody hiding.

I'd close with the following thought. There is no shortage of people claiming cops are heavy handed (not people here, I'm speaking specifically abt media soundbites by some civil libertarians (the ones on the fringe, not all of them)) and how this and that was wrong. Well since everyone else is the expert, why don't they join the police force and show everybody how it's done. If they wan't police to be unarmed, fine let's see them lead the way on that. Of course they won't, as even they know it only 'flies' in theory, and practical policing like it or not sometimes reaches a point where all diplomatic efforts have be tried and were not successful, and other tactics must be exercised. If not then we wouldn't need armed forces or the police, as we could just prevent criminal activity by the exchange of meaningful dialogue.

I certainly hope it doesn't get to the point it's at in South Africa, where police are heavily armed and for any call out they typically _have_ to leave their vehicle with guns drawn. The amt of officers who die in the line of duty over there in a week probably exceeds those here in a whole year.

John McKenzie

[ironhorse]

Jmac i'm not sure what your saying here . I certainly don't think Police should be unarmed - but that doesn't mean they should be packing uzis around town either. As your Sth African example shows it acheives nothing, except encourage the crims to up their own antes .
I think Ustasa summed it up pretty well . A level head prevails. In this incident in Vic it appears that better training was needed more than anything else.

[TonyJZX]

Aren't Hong kong's police unarmed? I guess that would be coz of the british influence too. They may have them now that China has taken over. Dont know.

HK general police are armed. I should know, I have relos in the force over there :D

Usually not much more than here though... ie. automatic pistols.

They do have the UK style rapid deployment forces. There's the example where Chinese nationals have shot up the richer areas with AK47s.

"We don't need paramilitary formations roaming the streets to take care of swede type morons armed with pistols at best."

NO offense intended, but I have to question whether you have the faintest idea of the level of firepower some (definitely a minority) crims have. Granted it's not like some places (cough USA cough) but I can tell you categorically that there are crims armed with more than pistols.

That's a strange call from Pumpit who is hardly what one would call a 'bleeding heart'.

The move from S&W Model 10 0.38 calibre revolvers to Glock 0.40 automatics was brought about by the deaths of two officers on the Central Coast who were facing off someone with a 5.56mm Mini-14 semi auto rifle.

I'd agree that well armed, well trained police is better than sending them off into the great unknown.

I'd say to some degree, we know that criminals are not that well armed so I don't think that long arms for general police is there yet.

T.

[Ustasa]

NO offense intended, but I have to question whether you have the faintest idea of the level of firepower some (definitely a minority) crims have. Granted it's not like some places (cough USA cough) but I can tell you categorically that there are crims armed with more than pistols.

Any crim armed with more then a pistol is extremely unlikely to go head to head with a police officer knowing that the tactical response group or worse, a military formation is only a emergency call away. Besides, at that level of crookery, guys armed to the teeth are more worried about other crims trying to do them in rather then worrying about a showdown at the OK Corral with johhny plod. Yes, I remember the ak47 toting armour vested bank robbers in yank land going toe to toe with LA's finest. But I dare say after that episode, most of the crooks would've reevaluated their desire to run head first into a wall of fire, which is what those 2 idiots did.

A good man with a pistol is more then a match for 99% of swede deadbeats with semi or even automatic weapons. Keeping your head when others are losing their's is the key.