Hybrid Powertrains... Pointless?

[Evo_Lee]

Yeah, it escapes me as well...at the time I thought it was pretty cool idea and expected more cars to make use of solar.

As my car sits in the garage I used to have a solar panel hooked up to the battery to trickle charge the battery, while I have my dad kick her over every 2-3 weeks.

Except when the place got broken into they nicked the solar panel , I guess that is the most valuable thing!

[Puff_Datto]

Sure they all have disadvantages, but why isn't development of hydrogen powered vehicles receiving the same attention? Only water vapour out the back sounds ok to me. It just seems like babysteps, rather than major advances, are what the manufacturers are focusing on.

You really think governments/oil companies want them?

[Jim]

Sure they all have disadvantages, but why isn't development of hydrogen powered vehicles receiving the same attention? Only water vapour out the back sounds ok to me. It just seems like babysteps, rather than major advances, are what the manufacturers are focusing on.

Problem has never been in making of power, the problem is in storing it once you have made it.

Hydrogen leaks out of any container you care to put it in, the molecules are so small it just oozes out the gaps. So then you need to make it on demand, and that calls for more power than what you can really carry on board a car. Also, you need to take power to make hydrogen, so you are still consuming something in order to make it.

[Zac]

To me the important thing is that the manufacturers are trying this new technology. If they didn't try it then we (as a human race) wouldn't learn about it or bring it to the attention of the general public. We might, or will certainly move on from hybrid technology in the future but we couldn't have evolved without it.

From a purely efficiency point of view, it is quite pointless putting the hybrid drivetrain in a big heavy car like a Prius and especially the Lexus, but it is appropriate to the general public's want and works with the point I made in paragraph 1.

I'd like to see the engine in a stripped out Echo with no radio, no aircon, minimal interior, etc.

[Captiva Fan]

From a purely efficiency point of view, it is quite pointless putting the hybrid drivetrain in a big heavy car like a Prius and especially the Lexus

Is that really true though? I thought part of this stuff was about catching wasted energy; and the bigger/heavier the car is, the more energy you waste through braking the things. So I would have thought these types of technologies would actually bring big & heavy beasts back closer to the efficiency of lighter vehicles?

Also, you need to take power to make hydrogen, so you are still consuming something in order to make it.

True; but you can make it somewhere else that's more efficient, or you can even make it slowly during the day. I suspect that a lot of people have realised that there's an efficiency loss in making electricity to create hydrogen to burn in an engine & create forward movement; as opposed to just using electricity to directly create forward movement.

[Zac]

They can never 100% recover all the energy so (IMO) the less that is used in the first place the less will need to be recovered.

It is the absolute mass of CO2 output that is killing the environment.

[browney]

Hybrids do make sense for the city though. When you are stoped at traffic lights or crawling along they are just using the battery. At a guess (my uninformed guess only) hybrids would be more efficient that turbo deisels for cities with lots of traffic (like say, tokyo or L.A). Where there is more motorway driving (like there seems to be in Europe), you are probably better of with a turbo deisel.

So the real question is,

Hybrid Powertrains.... Pointless (for the driving I do)?

[THE ASH]

my answer: yes

[oldcorollas]

hybrids make perfect sense for japanese cities... the amount of bloody stopping and starting.....

why not capture the bets of both worlds and have turbo diesel hybrids

no... seriously.... (apart from lack of diesel in japan.... tho i still see massive US pickups guzzling diesel everyday???)

[Datto-Zed]

GS430
City: 13.0L/100km
Highway: 9.4L/100km

GS450H
City: 9.4L/100km
Highway:8.4/100km

That looks like a pretty decent difference to me.

The GS300 betters the hybrid on the highway with 7.8L/100km, but around town the hybrid still beats its 10.7L/100km.

[GTSBoy]

GS430
City: 13.0L/100km
Highway: 9.4L/100km

GS450H
City: 9.4L/100km
Highway:8.4/100km

That looks like a pretty decent difference to me.

The GS300 betters the hybrid on the highway with 7.8L/100km, but around town the hybrid still beats its 10.7L/100km.

Hmm. But look at the total cost of ownership and see which one comes out in front. Then look at how much energy was required to manufacture the batteries (and other bits that don't get a guernsey in the non-hybrid version) and wonder how many km it takes to save that much.

I haven't actually worked it out, but we know from experience that it takes something like 15 years to pay back the energy investment in solar cells. And high tech batteries are nearly as bad as they are at the energy balance.

cheers

[hamish]

GTS what's the recyclability like for these batteries? are they anything like aluminium, in that the big energy investment is in the mining & creation of the materials, & that they could be reused with a much lower energy input 2n 3rd etc time round?

Having said that, I think one of the biggest gains in efficiency could be had if people bought cars more appropriate to their actual needs, rather than as bloated status symbols, eg. somebody trucking to work everyday in a Landcruiser, when in reality something like a diesel Golf would more than meet their needs.

[Evo_Lee]

Somehow I don't think people who buy them will care how long it takes to make up the difference. To them it's just a car...it looks good in their eyes, luxurious, quick enough and being cheaper to run is just a bonus. Along with being environmentally friendly. It'll sell well in the States no doubt.

There are heaps of info to read up on their technology online.

Out of interest the claimed performance figures:
-GS350 0-100km/h=7.2 sec, 0-400m=15.5 sec
-GS450h 0-100km/h=6.0sec, 0-400m=14.4sec

THS II = Toyota's 2nd Generation Hybrid System.








Nickel hydrogen battery arrangement under rear seat

Lexus Unveils LS600h L at New York Auto Show

Tokyo, April 12, 2006 — Lexus unveiled today the all-new 2008 LS600h L hybrid luxury sedan at the 2006 New York International Automobile Show (open to the press April 12 and 13; open to the general public April 14 to 23).

The LS600h L, a high-end model from the Lexus flagship LS series, combines a newly developed high-output 5.0-liter V8 engine with a high-performance motor to achieve dynamic performance on par with a 6.0-liter V12 engine, as well as excellent fuel efficiency similar to that of a V6 all-wheel-drive midsize sedan and clean exhaust emissions (at the Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle, or SULEV, level defined by California in the United States).

Vehicle Outline

Lexus Hybrid Drive
By combining a newly developed high-output 5.0-liter V8 gasoline engine with a compact high-output motor, the LS600h L provides driving performance equivalent to that of a 6.0-liter V12 engine, but with superior fuel efficiency and cleaner exhaust emissions.

The continuously variable transmission features a two-stage motor speed reduction device that optimally adjusts power drive from the motor in accordance with driving conditions.

A newly developed all-wheel drive (AWD) system, which fully conveys the power generated by the hybrid system to the road surface, has been adopted to ensure safe driving, even at high speeds.

When starting up and operating at low speeds or with a light load, the vehicle can be operated as an electric vehicle (EV), achieving the exceptionally quiet ride characteristic of a hybrid vehicle.

Coinciding with the debut of the all-new LS is the introduction of the name Lexus Hybrid Drive, which will be used globally for all Lexus hybrid models.

Advanced Safety Technologies
The new LS600h L features a Pre-crash Safety System with a driver monitoring system that can detect the direction of the driver's face, and, when needed, issue emergency warnings at an earlier stage.

In addition to being better able to perceive other vehicles and obstacles on the road ahead, the use of stereo cameras and an improved millimeter-wave radar system enable the improved Pre-Crash Safety System to effectively detect pedestrians.

Outstanding Driving Performance
A new platform design allows the vehicle to offer a comfortable ride, as well as superior handling and enhanced stability.

It features completely redesigned front and rear multi-link suspensions, as well as VGRS (Variable Gear Ratio Steering) and VDIM (Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management) for integrated active steering control.

New Lexus Design Direction
Based on the Lexus design philosophy of L-finesse*1, the new LS600h L, following the complete redesigning of the Lexus GS and IS sedans, is meant to be a first-generation model featuring a unique design characterized by a sense of dignity and emotional beauty suitable for a flagship model.

Interior and Special Features

-World's first commercial application*2 of LED headlights (low beam)
-Advanced Parking Guidance System
-Four-zone front and rear air conditioning with air purification function and body-heat sensors for independent automatic temperature controls for all four occupants
-Heated steering wheel and ventilated seats wrapped in one of four tones of semi-aniline leathers matched to one of three coordinating wood-grain trims
-Power reclining rear seats with power leg rests and a massage feature
-Rear-seat DVD entertainment system with a 9-inch drop-down screen and a 19-speaker 450-watt Mark Levinson audio system
-Large rear console and rear-seat fold-away table
-Rear-door power sunshades and rear power headrests, among numerous other comfort-enhancing features

The long-wheelbase LS600h L will be available in North America. The LS600h L and a standard length LS600h will be available in Japan. Both models are scheduled for a launch (including Japan) in the spring of 2007.

*1 Created by combining "leading-edge" and "finesse" design concepts
*2 According to TMC survey

**Maximum Output: Greater than 430hp

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/06/0412.html

[Zac]

Nice looking car actually.

We could have never developed the internal combustion engine either given that early attempts leaked oil, leaked fuel, needed to be hand cranked, failed regularly and were generally quite hopeless. Fortunately we did.

[Peter...]

Is the electric car once again a viable option, given the advances in Battery technology? I mean, why couldn't customers pay off the cost of the new batteries they would eventually need in a manner similar to how people pay for petrol now?