Toyota Aurion

[Peter...]

bigmuz, majority of the public don't give a rats about RWD.

Thats why Mitsubishi are selling so many 380's and Toyota sold a heap of Avalons eh? Lemme guess, you work in Toyota's marketing dept? Are the free cardigans nice?

[Captiva Fan]

bigmuz, majority of the public don't give a rats about RWD.

I disagree. Majority of the buying public wouldn't know the difference if you took 'em for two laps in a Liberty - with the front drive disabled the first time & the rear drive disabled the second time. However, they think they care, which is what matters when it comes to buying something. They believe that FWD is for small cars only (and tolerate it in medium cars 'cos that's all that's available unless they've got the readies to buy a 5-series or E-class ... in which case they generally don't buy a FWD Audi or a Volvo or a Saab for the same money).

[MR-PUNANNY]

So why are there soo many Camry's sold? You guys are saying its shit to drive, but no one has even driven it yet. Who knows, it might be just as nice feel as a dc2r! haha

[smellytofu]

I disagree. Majority of the buying public wouldn't know the difference if you took 'em for two laps in a Liberty - with the front drive disabled the first time & the rear drive disabled the second time. However, they think they care, which is what matters when it comes to buying something. They believe that FWD is for small cars only (and tolerate it in medium cars 'cos that's all that's available unless they've got the readies to buy a 5-series or E-class ... in which case they generally don't buy a FWD Audi or a Volvo or a Saab for the same money).

Show me the evidence coz I have hard evidence that disputes your claim time and time again.

Anyway, I have nothing to do with it. I'd be happy with a Mark X (as per bigmuz) but the powers to be says otherwise. As long as people are putting their hands in their pockets pulling out wads of $100 bills, I don't think anyone cares.

[Jim]

if you told your average buyer to tell you how many wheels a car has, they will walk out to the nearest one and count them.

probably only 15% give any kind of informed shit when buying a car.

[smellytofu]

Exactly. There'll be even less people who could tell you what understeer, torque steer, over steer, lift-off oversteer, etc etc meant.

Last figure I heard about modifiers is that it is <5% of the car owners out there. There's no business sense in building a family car to satisfy <5% of the market.

[Captiva Fan]

Show me the evidence coz I have hard evidence that disputes your claim time and time again.

The only evidence I have is what fleet leasing companies say about what, in turn, their customers say. Everyone "knows" that FWD doesn't belong in large cars, regardless of whether they realise "why" ... in fact, even my couldn't-give-a-toss-about-cars friends "know" this, including the ones that fill the engine-oil until it reaches the top.

[smellytofu]

Well, I heard one fleet manager that signed for 500 Aurions to replace the Commodore on the dealer/fleet launch that happened last weekend. But I don't know if they are indicative of the general fleet buyers. But at least everyone I talk to (might be biased) are talking positive compared to when the Avalon was launched.

Fleet don't really care about driving qualities. All the care about is the green rating, resale, and the cost to keep them on the road (I think there's more... not 100% sure there).

Regardless, it's a product that people are still paying hard earned dollars for, so why change? Something seems to be working? For a family car that gets driven to the shopping centres and schools, does it really matter which end does the driving? Maybe at the track but probably not anywhere else at the speed limit.

[Captiva Fan]

Fleet don't really care about driving qualities. All the care about is the green rating, resale, and the cost to keep them on the road (I think there's more... not 100% sure there).

A lot of people get a choice in which fleet car they get though, and the people making those choices [i]think/i] they want/need RWD in their large car. It seems that few fleets are game to take the Falcodore option off the table, possibly due to large factory subsidies c/f imports (& smaller cars too ... pretty sure Corollas weren't as heavily discounted when they were made here, and I'm fairly sure Camrys weren't either).

And you seem to be ignoring the fact that what's important with sales is what people think they need or want, not what they actually need to do what they want to do ... look at gerlytruk sales for example, very few people ever use the extra abilities of a Landbruiser over a Camry wagon (apart from the ones that a Tarago does better) - yet the Camry wagon was killed due to people buying Landbruisers instead.

[smellytofu]

Yes, you're correct. We're a long way from the "you can have a Falcon and Commodore as long as it's in white" days. Added to that OH&S factors.

I didn't say this is a car for everyone... it's just targeted at the families... I'm sure if there was a wagon, there'd be one made (there is the Avensis Verso that everyone seems to forget).

[Peter...]

Regardless, it's a product that people are still paying hard earned dollars for, so why change? Something seems to be working? For a family car that gets driven to the shopping centres and schools, does it really matter which end does the driving? Maybe at the track but probably not anywhere else at the speed limit.

You ever noticed just how much bigger the turning circle on a FWD sedan is compared to the rear drive equivalent? I say it does make a difference, especially in places like shopping centres. And if my parents can feel the difference between a FWD and RWD sedan then I'd guess probably most people can. Sure, they may not be able to tell you why its different or what made it so, but they do notice.

[Captiva Fan]

I reckon they're convincing themselves because they know it's FWD, not because they actually feel the difference. Until you push a modern large FWD car a bit harder, you can't feel it through the wheel these days; accelerating hard away from a set of lights in a 380 doesn't tug at the wheel like it did in an AE82.
I kinda agree on the turning circle thing. I don't understand why anyone gives a toss, and there's no WAY it would affect any car-buying decision I made, but for a reason completely nonsensical to me people do quote turning circles & actually factor it into their decision. Ooooh, that 20cm reduction in turning circle in a Commode vs a 380 just makes my life SO much more pleasant!!

[Peter...]

Its just a pain in the arse having to turn every U-turn into a 3 point turn just because your car comes from a Japanese Company, and you'd be surprised how important that reduction in functionality can be to the average Joe and Joelene.

Trust me forg, my parents wouldn't know it was FWD unless I (or someone) told them, but they have driven several when they were lauded as being very very good cars at various times, and left satisfied that the equivalent Commodore was a more composed, satisfying car to drive. Why is that so?

[smellytofu]

Handbrake turn. You'll end up in one direction sooner or later.

[Turbo4WD]

You ever noticed just how much bigger the turning circle on a FWD sedan is compared to the rear drive equivalent? I say it does make a difference, especially in places like shopping centres. And if my parents can feel the difference between a FWD and RWD sedan then I'd guess probably most people can. Sure, they may not be able to tell you why its different or what made it so, but they do notice.

Thats a really good point. To the average joe thats something they notice.

Another thing that the average joe would notice is how a car feels to drive. Falcodores tend to have engines that are setup for more torque than their FWD rivals (although the 380 is an exception there) so they tend to feel slightly different.

I like Fogs idea of converting AWD cars to FWD and seeing if people noticed. What I would like to see is a car mag or show take two identical AWD cars (say the current model STi wrx) , convert one to FWD and one to RWD and then take them for a test in different enviroments (ie track, street , drags ect) and drivers (pro, enthusiast, mum, dad, gramps, teenage boy, teenage girl ect). It would make a great read.

Actulay why not make it a few cars, a territory turbo would be another one that would be interesting to convert.