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    #46
    scuffers, Jamie thought you were having a dig at him because he drives the Daytona. We all know each other in this thread and we obviously know you too. Which car is yours?
    The most dangerous risk of all - the risk of spending your life not doing what you want, on the bet you can buy yourself the freedom to do it later. - Randy Komisar.

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      #47
      Where else do older GT3 cars (Viper/Mosler/F360/430) go to race ?

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        #48
        Create a new category for them, 2G??? Run them in a seperate championship, but combine them with 2B and 2F fields or with 2A were safe to do so, depending on track and sanctioning body. CAMS will be easier in some ways more difficult in others, AASA run pretty much their show to suit what cars are turning up to play.

        Seems to have worked back in the early '90s when the PRB's and Frasers were racing in 2B, and are still on the eligible vehicles list, when 2B Prod Sports was called Marque Sports. After a few years the clubman type cars were moved to the sports 1300's to form 2C Supersports. Not sure on all the politics as I have had a drink and a sleep since those days, but I know one of the reasons was safety after a Fraser got run over coming into stop/go at Amaroo by a Zed. Could have been a much worse collision that it was and thankfully the driver of the Fraser wasn't hurt. They were good fun to race against, but could be very difficult to see being so small even compared to a MG.

        Also this has been going on in Prod/Marque Sports since forever. When I first started racing in Marque Sports in the early 90's in Sydney there was shit fights over letting a couple of XJS's run, as well as the eligibility of a lot of the mods. My old Zed ran a RX7 Group C bird bath for a season before that was pinged and had to be removed, and then it was a shit fight to get the standard Nissan Motorsport bobtail approved to be fitted, let alone the IMSA style spoiler others were running. Then the front spoiler got pinged for an undertray that was to help strengthen the spoiler, so remove that and then 2 years later someone else wants to run one and then the rule is modified to allow that for that car. The there were cars that were running suspension that was illegal for the rules so instead of changing the cars the rules were changed to suit to keep the cars running. The old Division 2 cars, the precursor to 2F was even more of a shit fight for eligibility, with the manual and tech regs for the category in NSW specifying that there were basically no mods allowed other than manufacturer options and treaded tyres to be used there were some dodgy things done to get stuff through, like dealer receipts for cars with certain options and the FIA papaerwork coming out to say a car could run specific parts as it is in there. I certainly didn't envy Mick Roberts trying to get the category back on track and laying down the foundations for what we had in the late 90's early 2000's before it started to get out of control again.

        At least on some things there was some common sense, like a gentleman's agreement that no one would be protested or pinged for a few illegalities regarding lights and grills when they were getting rarer than rocking horse shit to replace.

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          #49
          I think scuffers co-drove a certain blue/red Lotus HPE in recent years
          Nathan

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            #50
            Yeah right, I found his name int he results from Island Magic 2010. The year it seriously pissed down. Suited us and CT.
            The most dangerous risk of all - the risk of spending your life not doing what you want, on the bet you can buy yourself the freedom to do it later. - Randy Komisar.

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              #51
              At the end of the day each category needs the other for Prod Sports to happen. Phillip I gets a full grid (why is it always 42 cars everywhere?) but SMP GP gets just 9. GTs/A/B are not numerous enough on their own. In an ideal world.......

              What are the thoughts on whether this motley crew will continue in enough numbers for Prod Sports to continue to exist in NSW?
              Insert pithy comment here "........."

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                #52
                Prod Sports will continue - no question. There is a place for all cars and classes. IMO, power to weight is THE ONLY way to do it. There is no way you can apply parity across cars with different body styles and constructs. The crazy thing is that that a 2B car actually has far more freedoms than a GT car - it's just that the GT cars are mostly newer and have more power to start with. Hence the 997s being faster than a 996 etc etc.

                Hi Scuffers - long time no see mate. I think the real issue people have with HPEs, is that the original intent of prod sports was supposedly Australian delivered and registerable sports cars. It certainly was when I started racing in 2002. To some purists (and I am not one of them), they take offense to the Ginetta and the Mosler the same way. Now people with older cars are not competitive - shit happens eh. My opinion is different, as far as I care, if it was built and raced as a sports car under the FIA, then it should be allowed. Can you imagine a car with the sports car racing pedigree of a Z06 Corvette or the Viper, not being allowed to race in prod sports? That would be fucking ridiculous. To those who engineered, built and got these new cars on the list - well done I say. I'd love an LS7 powered MX5 - so I bought a vette instead!

                The funny thing is, the racing is so damn competitive as it is, it kinda just works.
                A slow day at the track is better than any day in the office.

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                  #53
                  A properly aero 2B Sports car with decent, as in 750 to 800 hp Windsor Ford V8 power, the situation will reset. Chassis could be a modernised Cobra, a decent GT40 or something left field like a Nagari or De Tomaso.

                  Ian Wilson's Rover powered TVR Tuscan is a reasonable example of this, though a couple of hundred horsepower down on what is needed to get under the 1.10's at Sandown or under 1-30 at PI


                  The relatively gutless, circa 550 hp GT3's, things like Moslers or Corvettes powered by LS7's, or the smaller, fragile aluminium Chevs can be trounced.

                  The owner of the Daytona Ja mie sometimes drives said to me on a couple of occasions a few years that it was not possible to beat 996 GT3 Porkers with a Daytona, let alone a Cobra. Guess what?

                  Anyway, such is the potential speed of many of the cars that driver ability is the main determinant of how well they go.
                  Claimed horsepower sceptic.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by Momus View Post
                    A properly aero 2B Sports car with decent, as in 750 to 800 hp Windsor Ford V8 power, the situation will reset. Chassis could be a modernised Cobra, a decent GT40 or something left field like a Nagari or De Tomaso.
                    There's your first problem, aero. That's not as easy as it looks and I've been calle din to look at all sorts of home grown aero mods that produce a bit of downforce and a ton of drag. I guess that's why your calling for 750HP.

                    Which brings me to my next point which is power down. In the last 6 years of GT3 development this is by far the biggest leap forward, to the point now where even a 600+hp lambo struggles to lights it tyres up off second gear corners with the traction off. This is also where a couple of Lotii got quite a boost to their lap times.

                    I think a properly built Corvette could be good but it would have to be sub 6L right?

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                      #55
                      There are a few big dollar Cobras that run at Morgan Park, their aero is rudimentary to say the least. Big wing and a front spoiler seems to be about it but anyway the shape of a Cobra is all wrong for really effective aero. GT40 would be a different thing, a real nice one of those sometimes goes to MP too and it pisses all over the Cobras.
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                        #56
                        We do have one really nice GT40 rep in Prod Sports.



                        The most dangerous risk of all - the risk of spending your life not doing what you want, on the bet you can buy yourself the freedom to do it later. - Randy Komisar.

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                          #57
                          Yeah. that is a nice car.

                          Competition Systems

                          Winning Edge Electronics
                          Magneti Marelli, Jenvey Induction, Souriau Autosport, BF1 Systems, Cat Cams, ORECA, Variohm and Texense Sensors
                          www.compsystems.com.au

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by Cal View Post
                            We do have one really nice GT40 rep in Prod Sports.
                            Yes, and ain't it a beast! One of the best sounding racecars on the grid imo

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                              #59
                              I was just told that the shelby cobra shells were sent to the US as unpainted brand new shells, assembled with brand new engines from ford directly, and sold as brand new road registered cars....

                              After reading the Honda elise website, they are clearly just modifying second hand cars. There is really no comparison, is there.

                              Anyhow, I think that the current victorian state of play that Robyn Baily has brought in, which seems to be anything goes in the top class, which allows for the GT cars, the lotus', and other non compliant cars etc is a reasonable solution, with the genuine prod sports cars in a class within the race.

                              but it certainly doesn't solve the speed differential issue

                              -Jamie

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                                #60
                                Originally posted by cossie55 View Post
                                I was just told that the shelby cobra shells were sent to the US as unpainted brand new shells, assembled with brand new engines from ford directly, and sold as brand new road registered cars....

                                After reading the Honda elise website, they are clearly just modifying second hand cars. There is really no comparison, is there.

                                Anyhow, I think that the current victorian state of play that Robyn Baily has brought in, which seems to be anything goes in the top class, which allows for the GT cars, the lotus', and other non compliant cars etc is a reasonable solution, with the genuine prod sports cars in a class within the race.

                                but it certainly doesn't solve the speed differential issue

                                -Jamie
                                yes, in the later days, your right, however, the first ones were brought as complete retail cars, and thus were converted.

                                Look, I am not trying to tell you that a HPE is a brand of car, it is what it is, and we went though the CAMS procedure to get them listed, just as many have done before and I am sure will do so in the future..

                                Back to the actual issues with Prodsports at the moment...

                                GT cars - the theory goes that these are supposed to be at least 4 years old and run to their (FIA) homologation spec's from then, problem with that is (1) who is going to be able to police this, (2) some of the cars out there were not 4+ year old GT3 cars, and (3) the way the rules are written, *any* 911 can be entered as a 2B car no matter what.

                                Personally, I have less of a problem with this than the drivers of some of these cars, IMHO something needs to be done about P plate drivers not being allowed to enter these cars, some of the driving standards are quite frankly terrifying (and unfortunately, some of the ones with full licences were little better).

                                The other issue out there is some cars that are classed 2B cars are being run outside the regs, (no way should a Lotus HPE be able to out-drag an R8 down the main straight for example), but the Prodsports committee seem unable/unwilling/?? to deal with these issues, and this will be the death of the category if not addressed.

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