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    #91
    My view,

    *Lewis* (edit I had Max by mistake) was in the wrong and the 10 second penalty was the right call based on the way things have been run over the last few years.

    But I also believe this style of "racing" - driving like there's no one beside you, running people off the track, "it's MY corner" etc - leads to this sort of event as a natural conclusion.

    I want drivers running side by side corner after corner, making a real battle of it, rather than just running the other guy off the track and being done with it. It's also a stupidly irresponsible safety situation. You shouldn't be putting people in a situation where their only option is to yield or crash - that's unsafe and also bad racing. I'd prefer to see harsher penalties for car to car contact, especially when it results in the other car going off track, receiving damage or being put out of the race. And this isn't a Lewis rant, I was thinking the exact same thing with Max on Charles at Austria '19 (and others), same with The Michael, same with Senna etc.

    F1 have cultivated a racing culture that is based on pure cut-throat aggression with nothing giving to the opponent. When you combine that attitude with the monumental head to head championship scrap we've had this year, is anyone surprised? An event like this was inevitable and will probably happen again before the year is out.
    Last edited by leothedrummer; 19-07-21, 02:43 PM.
    BMW E21 Racer

    ATCC & V8SC Results, Data, Statistics and Discussion from 1960 to now

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      #92
      Bit lenient on Hamilton I think. Compared to George's penalty in the opening lap of the sprint race for much lighter and less dangerous contact in a far slower corner and definitely a more 50/50 sort of incident. George get's a 3 place grid penalty for the race, Hamilton gets 10 sec added to a pitstop. Which is next to meaningless by the time you get to the pitstop window in a car that's now 1sec per lap faster than anything else left in the race... 3 spots is a much harsher penalty for a lesser incident. imo. Punt your championship rival into the wall at 180mph and barely lose a position (ie only to your team mate) as a penalty?

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        #93
        /csh Racing

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          #94
          Originally posted by leothedrummer View Post
          same with The Michael, same with Senna etc.

          F1 have cultivated a racing culture that is based on pure cut-throat aggression with nothing giving to the opponent. When you combine that attitude with the monumental head to head championship scrap we've had this year, is anyone surprised? An event like this was inevitable and will probably happen again before the year is out.
          Agree 100%
          .... because every driver experiences the destructive potential of the effortless surge of power available through the smallest of body movements.

          Dr Hoon
          .

          DrNick is king!!!! No, Mark Webber is now! Long live the king!... hold on a minute mate, Ricci is in charge now

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            #95
            Originally posted by Chopper Read View Post
            He was also penalised 2 championship points after the race.
            That's bullshit. Max was as much or more responsible for that crash than Lewis, and I'm no Lewis fan.

            Come on Dan, get your shit together and get up the front where you belong!

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              #96
              He’s gonna be bloody sore today and for some time I’d say.

              I have nothing against Ham or Max, it was a tough call and bloody exciting 3/4 of a lap. I think Ham stuck his nose in where it was a bit tight going into a fast corner like that, but by the time he realised it was possibly a mistake (I.e. When he gets a little under steer) it was too late to do anything else except try and back out, which he did. At the same time, Max turned in expecting him to have backed out if it a bit more. IMO Lewis’ fault for making a move and not doing it safely, consequences were huge on that corner, and in most places where things were a bit slower they probably would have avoided each other, but at that speed the cars just don’t steer, stop or go places very quickly. Perhaps the penalty could have been a touch harsher which would have seen Choccy Eclair win, but I don’t think it should have gone much further than it did. Just a shame we didn’t get to see them both battle it out for the rest of the race.

              Glad Max is ok for now, it’ll certainly create some tension between the teams, and despite it being scary to see Max hit the wall like that it has definitely spiced up an already exciting battle between the two.

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                #97
                Originally posted by hrd View Post
                Bit lenient on Hamilton I think. Compared to George's penalty in the opening lap of the sprint race for much lighter and less dangerous contact in a far slower corner and definitely a more 50/50 sort of incident. George get's a 3 place grid penalty for the race, Hamilton gets 10 sec added to a pitstop. Which is next to meaningless by the time you get to the pitstop window in a car that's now 1sec per lap faster than anything else left in the race... 3 spots is a much harsher penalty for a lesser incident. imo. Punt your championship rival into the wall at 180mph and barely lose a position (ie only to your team mate) as a penalty?
                Penalties aren't based on how hard he hit the wall - another 2m over and it would have been techpro and much softer. Otherwise every driver who ended someones race in the wall should get a 10 second stop and go and a race ban?

                The only reason he got imho was because of how it ended.
                Originally posted by brasher
                TJ is 99% African American.

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                  #98
                  Max being a little spicy from hospital

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                    #99
                    Originally posted by TJ View Post

                    Penalties aren't based on how hard he hit the wall - another 2m over and it would have been techpro and much softer. Otherwise every driver who ended someones race in the wall should get a 10 second stop and go and a race ban?

                    The only reason he got imho was because of how it ended.
                    By 'lighter contact' I meant how hard the the cars hit each other, not the resultant crash.

                    The penalty should be based on how dangerous the driving is. Banging wheels hard in a 180mph corner is bloody dangerous. 10sec penalty doesn't reflect that. Airplane crash is the term the commentators use to describe that kind of shunt when their boy isn't the at fault party.

                    Much more dangerous than George's much lighter touch with Carlos in a much slower corner the day before, but the penalty for George was harder.
                    Last edited by hrd; 19-07-21, 01:27 PM.

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                      Originally posted by lukevl View Post
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                      Do the same pic 50m back and it will explain why this looks so different

                      Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk

                      Originally posted by Babalouie
                      Geez we're a bunch of softcocks...we have a 911 and we're obsessing over non-functional ducts and indicator colours

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                        Originally posted by vet 180 View Post
                        Do the same pic 50m back and it will explain why this looks so different

                        Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk
                        Yep, and everyone is still fixated on the inside line. 50m back Max almost put Lewis in the wall. 50m on Max should have been safely going around the outside of Lewis with still plenty of room to the outside of the track, or if need be forced wide onto the run off area. Instead Max turned hard right when he had already seen Lewis was beside him, expecting Lewis to get out of it to let him take a normal apex to the corner. On this occasion Lewis either wasn't quick enough to get out of it or took the position 'fuck you I'm racing here too'.

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                          Max left him room. Lewis still hit him.
                          The rest is just biases talking.

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                            Originally posted by hrd View Post
                            Max left him room. Lewis still hit him.
                            The rest is just biases talking.
                            Lewis only hit him because Max turned in on him.

                            It would be good to see the telemetry from both cars overlayed on the video in slo mo. Moments before the actual collision, Lewis was fully beside Max, front wing to front wing.

                            Max in car clearly shows him turning right to the apex, see's Lewis's wing, briefly turns the wheel back left then straight away turns it hard right again. By this time Lewis had dropped back to his front wheel in line with Max's rear wheel, where the impact occurred. It would be interesting to see if the telemetry shows Lewis did in fact 'get out of it'.

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                              60/40 incident I reckon. Just not sure who is 60 and who is 40. I’ve gotta say though, Max has reintroduced his weaving from early in his F1 career, and I think it bit him on the bum today.

                              people keep going on about Ham missing the apex, I thought he look OK until the collision to be honest.

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                                Originally posted by Shane001 View Post

                                Lewis only hit him because Max turned in on him.

                                It would be good to see the telemetry from both cars overlayed on the video in slo mo. Moments before the actual collision, Lewis was fully beside Max, front wing to front wing.

                                Max in car clearly shows him turning right to the apex, see's Lewis's wing, briefly turns the wheel back left then straight away turns it hard right again. By this time Lewis had dropped back to his front wheel in line with Max's rear wheel, where the impact occurred. It would be interesting to see if the telemetry shows Lewis did in fact 'get out of it'.
                                I guess thats the difference between leaving a car width of track vs leaving an extrapolated racing line for the attacking car based on what can be acheived at its current velocity (and I believe that velocity is the responsibility of that driver attacking, not the defender. yes lewis may have had "nowhere to go" but he chose to go that speed into the corner. does max have to let him? it caused him to crash but that was his defensive strategy.

                                my thoughts on a mid corner collision:

                                A) attackers front axle behind defenders rear axle = attackers fault
                                B) attackers front axle between defenders axles = shared responsibility
                                C) attackers front axle at or in front of defenders front axle = defenders fault

                                but for case B there is a lot of grey area on split of responsibilty based on what happened leading up to the collision thats quite hard to define in rules and is more of a mabo thing.
                                Last edited by burn is weird; 19-07-21, 01:55 PM.

                                Oo___oO

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