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Ignition/Spark woes - multiple setups, no spark!

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    Ignition/Spark woes - multiple setups, no spark!

    Fellas,

    Ive been fiddling when time allows with the white Gemini trying to get it running properly and at the moment it has me pulling my hair out. Engine is a fresh mild 1600 with twin IDFs that I have had running albiet with heavily over-fuelling issues. I vowed that Id be driving it out of this garage prior to this house selling and seeing as im a stubborn fuck I intend to stick to that. Problem is although i can read a basic wiring diagram and wire it, the finer details and troubleshooting electrical shit is beyond me.

    Cliffs:

    -Engine starts/runs/has spark using GT40 coil and points distributor from the gold Gemini
    -Have 1x OEM variable reluctor dizzy and 1x aftermarket hall effect distributor; condition unknown on variable reluctor, hall effect guts are new
    -Have 1x Bosch 1 227 022 008 (BIM023) ignition module ex-Camira, condition unknown
    -Have 1x Procomp Electronics Compact Sport Ignition box, condition unknown

    Combinations tried:

    Setup 1

    Hall effect kit wired to Bosch ign module as described by manufacturer of kit [this was years ago so cant exactly contact the person that made it as he is MIA]. Wiring for that is as follows:

    The wiring of the module is as follows
    1. To the Ignition Coil Negative terminal
    2. To the Chassis Ground or Battery Negative terminal
    3. Not Used
    4. Power Supply to the ignition module. Must have 12V when the car is in ON and in START. This can be found from the original coil ignition power wire.
    5. To the Hall Sensors Red wire. The ignition module supplies power to the hall sensor through this wire
    6. To the Hall Sensors Green wire. This is the trigger wire from the hall sensor to the ignition module.
    7. This is the Tacho Signal Out wire. It is completely optional to use this wire. If you have an aftermarket tacho you can connect it to this terminal for a clean tacho signal.
    The third/earth wire from the hall effect ive tried wiring to chassis earth, and to the negative side of coil with zero difference - no spark on crank.

    Setup 2 - Hall effect sensor wire to Procomp module

    This is the spark box in question [photos stolen from someone else]



    And this is the wiring for it [again photos from someone else so sorry if they are small]



    White wire on Procomp box wired to green trigger wire on hall effect, purple/green wires not used, red switched 12v to ignition coil positive. No spark.


    Setup 3 - Variable reluctor setup wired to Procomp box

    Wiring as per above except white wire inactive, green and purple wires connected to two wires from reluctor pickup. No dice.

    All attempts were done using the GT40 non-resisted coil.

    Questions:

    What the actual fuck am i doing wrong here?
    How do i test if either ignition module [bosch or procomp] is faulty?
    How do i test if either distributor setup is faulty? I assume that test light to two wires on variable reluctor pickup should show a pulse when distributor is turned, but otherwise what do i do?
    How important is the gap on the variable reluctor? spec says .4 or .6, but will it give nada if its .8?
    How well do two carb bowls worth of fuel burn cars down because im seriously at the point of throwing a match down the throat of the carbs?

    Please send/nudes help before i drive myself mental.

    N-
    1978 Gemini Sedan - Powered by i change my mind every week
    1980 Gemini Sedan
    1992 Land Rover Discovery 200TDI

    #2
    Are you actually getting 12v at your switched ignition?
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

    Comment


      #3
      You can bench test the CDI box pretty easily, feed it 12 volts, connect to coil, and it should throw a big fucking spark if you earth white trigger wire.
      "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

      Comment


        #4
        Are the dizzys actually turning?

        Comment


          #5
          Other trick is to use the points dizzy as the CDI trigger (white wire). The points live for a really fucking long time that way.
          "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Gammaboy View Post
            Are you actually getting 12v at your switched ignition?
            Originally posted by Gammaboy View Post
            You can bench test the CDI box pretty easily, feed it 12 volts, connect to coil, and it should throw a big fucking spark if you earth white trigger wire.
            If by 12V switched at ignition you mean at the coil positive terminal then yes it should be, i removed the ballast resistor. Will run a multimeter over it to confirm. Will give the test a stab thanks...just need to remember not to hold the lead and aim it somewhere away from me

            Originally posted by BigMuz View Post
            Are the dizzys actually turning?
            Certainly are

            Originally posted by Gammaboy View Post
            Other trick is to use the points dizzy as the CDI trigger (white wire). The points live for a really fucking long time that way.
            Lol come on man not even im dumb. That said the gold car has been running 12V on its points for over 30k and they still havent burnt out yet, and the box even says you can use it to run points....

            All jokes aside i dont have a spare points dizzy otherwise id have rage quit by now and just put the points dizzy in it.
            1978 Gemini Sedan - Powered by i change my mind every week
            1980 Gemini Sedan
            1992 Land Rover Discovery 200TDI

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by F3ARED View Post
              Lol come on man not even im dumb. That said the gold car has been running 12V on its points for over 30k and they still havent burnt out yet, and the box even says you can use it to run points....
              eh? The triggering via points is extremely low current through the actual points. I've been running the GTV like that for 9 years, and apart from 1 points failure, and the MSD having a rest once for no reason, it's been flawless, even if I did paint it crinkle black and Muz predicted the world would end because it now couldn't shed heat...

              I'm going to suggest that more than one of the things you're trying to probably fucked, and you should swap something out. Of course, unless you've got access to a scope, there's not a real solid way to tell what's good or not (although you should be able to test the bosch module by bridging the 2 hall wires and looking for a spark output)
              "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

              Comment


                #8
                Sorry i thought you were taking the mickey because everyone goes on about how 12v burns points out, just assumed by running the big blue box to it itll fry it. No scope and tbh no fucking idea how to use one either lol. Ill start with testing the blue box the way you suggested to rule that in/out. In regards to using points to trigger, the trigger wire on the hall effect should work on the same principle no?
                1978 Gemini Sedan - Powered by i change my mind every week
                1980 Gemini Sedan
                1992 Land Rover Discovery 200TDI

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by F3ARED View Post
                  Sorry i thought you were taking the mickey because everyone goes on about how 12v burns points out, just assumed by running the big blue box to it itll fry it. No scope and tbh no fucking idea how to use one either lol. Ill start with testing the blue box the way you suggested to rule that in/out. In regards to using points to trigger, the trigger wire on the hall effect should work on the same principle no?
                  Yep, white wire works as a trigger when switched to ground, so works the same way for points and hall.
                  "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

                  Comment


                    #10
                    i would start by looking at what is actually inside the ignition box.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      If like most Poocomp Electronics, probably some home-soldered circuit board kit made from melted down tennis rackets. Prolem numero uno IMO. Even the good ones can be temperamental when not set up right.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The issue is im getting no spark from either setup inc two different distributors - dunno but pretty unlikely id have thought. The only "constant" is the coil and the wiring in the car, both of which worked fine when tested with the standard points distributor.

                        Finally got a chance to test the poocomp as per mr gammas instructions; earthing the white wire and i have no spark at coil lead but the procomp makes an audible noise.

                        What are the chances the coil has taken a dump and fucked out? Tested voltage at coil positive as thats where the procomp switched 12v is wired to and im getting 11.4v, shirley the .6v difference isnt enough to have a no spark situation?
                        1978 Gemini Sedan - Powered by i change my mind every week
                        1980 Gemini Sedan
                        1992 Land Rover Discovery 200TDI

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by F3ARED View Post
                          The issue is im getting no spark from either setup inc two different distributors - dunno but pretty unlikely id have thought. The only "constant" is the coil and the wiring in the car, both of which worked fine when tested with the standard points distributor.

                          Finally got a chance to test the poocomp as per mr gammas instructions; earthing the white wire and i have no spark at coil lead but the procomp makes an audible noise.

                          What are the chances the coil has taken a dump and fucked out? Tested voltage at coil positive as thats where the procomp switched 12v is wired to and im getting 11.4v, shirley the .6v difference isnt enough to have a no spark situation?
                          The MSD box the Procomp is a copy of will run down to relatively low voltage. I reckon it's probably borked. Unfortunately to open them up, you've got to drill the eyelets at the mounting holes out.
                          You could try the same test, but holding the wires that you'd otherwise connect to the coil. If working, will give you a bit of a belt (but nothing compared to the zap the coil will give you. They *should* jump 1/2" of airgap at the king lead)
                          "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Gammaboy View Post
                            The MSD box the Procomp is a copy of will run down to relatively low voltage. I reckon it's probably borked. Unfortunately to open them up, you've got to drill the eyelets at the mounting holes out.
                            You could try the same test, but holding the wires that you'd otherwise connect to the coil. If working, will give you a bit of a belt (but nothing compared to the zap the coil will give you. They *should* jump 1/2" of airgap at the king lead)
                            Isn't that what you have children for???

                            Sent from my XT1635-02 using Tapatalk

                            Comment


                              #15
                              can you give a bim024 module and your reluctor dizzy a go? have you tried any of gamma's suggestions yet?
                              Originally posted by Skompa
                              The throttle linkages jammed on the CDs in my old Triumph 2000 and stuck it at WOT.

                              I didn't realise for about 15 mins as it never broke the speed limit.

                              Comment

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