142S vs 124BC vs 105 GTV vs 2002?

[floody]

Ok, well,
105=rust, $$$$$. highly overrated, they seem fast in classic rallies etc, but the same budget on a datto or volvo or something would be quicker-they are like cars for people that don't want a porsche but are ready to spend the same money.
124=rust, not so many dollars, but RUST....my god....
but the little fiat twink motor is a good old thing, but they don't exactly make gobs of power in 2 valve form-just sound good and drive nicely (if not quickly). As with anything italian, if you want it to go much quicker than stock, well its dollars time.
142- tuff, cheap, there is an alloy grill one at sebastopol motor wreckers in Ballarat, victoria, quietly sitting in the graveyard, appears mostly complete and sound to me. motor might be shagged, its storage at the moment. been there for years. no good if you're not in melbourne I spose. Can be made quite fast with basic, not super expensive mods.
2002-if the engines stuffed, its better to throw the car away than repair it, used to be the way it was........But can be quick, especially twin carb model, schnitzer twin cam top end conversion in the early 70's(?)had like 300hp........ It is basically a german datsun1600/ vice versa. So logically, we come to the datto, the cheapest, fastest car of that era, dollar for dollar......
actually, the 1600 quite dramatically out handles the 2002.....
cheers,
floody

[Spac]

Beta = Bleah. I like 'em, but not enough to actually want to spend the money / time / effort required to buy and own one... and FWD... c'mon guys!

I should also mention that living in Canberra does have the advantage of not having to worry too much about rust... Not to say that things don't rust at all, but there are actually people driving around in "it just a car" type rough old italian cars that aren't falling to (rusty) bits!.

The 124 I've been chasing was built as a hill-climb car many moons ago. I spoke to the builder of it (I knew CAMS log-books would come in handy for something), and he told me that he'd put a huge amount of steel into it when he built it (late '80s) - still no sign of it now, despite the car living outside. How many coastal people could say that?

Floody - Datsun 1600? Ha ha! If you know me, you'd know how much of a laugh that statment is. And Fro, before you say anything, remember that you'll need a Teratrip for the 1.98 stages you're going to do, so...

Forg, So who's gonna make me burn? Nah, I know how good GTs are, but then again, a 850R would be better again - but I don't want a new car. And believe it or not, in this case, a 242GT is too new....

Thanks for the input - keep it coming!

[Captiva Fan]

Hey, dunno why I didn't think of this before; but any reason you wouldn't consider a Mk1 Cortina or Escort with Lotus or Cosworth badges?

[Spac]

I'd love a Mk1 Lotus Cortina - but I can't even pretend to afford one. Hell, a good 2-door cookie cutter model would be fine, but there doesn't seem to be such a thing...

Escort? See "Lancia Beta".

[Captiva Fan]

Untrue on the cookie-cutter thing, a mate of mine has been looking at 2dr GT's every now & again (which he then passes up 'cos he doesn't have the space), and good ones seem to be available for $3k-$4k (they may be fake GT's, dunno if they're semi-collectible due to race heritage, even if they're not that much more exciting than a std one).

I'm probably just young enough for Escorts to be a novelty.

[Spammy]

Fiat 131/132 sedans are in the paper at rego value only ...newer...better built (maybe) and still fun.

Buy one, drive it like it was stolen and walk away from it when it stops.

[Nero]

The 124 I'm thinking of is a shell with rust removed, seam welded with cams approved 1/2 cage. Sills have been braced (OTT in my mind) and there is badly repaired damage to front passenger 1/4 and rear 1/4, sunroof hole, panel damage was previously hidden by filler. No front suspension at all and no interior, it is was it is a forgotten race project AC...if I had the space I'd take it. Tunnel has been modified to take 131 5sp. A similar car has done 1.56 at phillip island in 16V form, they can be made to go very well. 8V would probably give away 5-6sec on this. For the people with a 'limited' budget, you will always get more power from the Fiat than an Alfa/BMW. Engine mods are easily staged, and not necessarily expensive as long as you know what to do and where to go (or not go as noted above). It is possible to get 98-100kW at the wheels from a 2lt 8V, but it does take care and about $1-1.5K
I think rust will be a problem in any car of this age. I have seen 124's that have almost no rust and some, like the Beta sedan in centre rd wreckers that I can flex by hoicking on a corner (but I am 125kg!).
What about an X19?...I know a rust free X19 with a blown engine for less than $3k....add a regatta 100s engine and transmission and a very nippy little car. I was shocked how well they went around the corners!
Hakosuka, what you are saying then is that they share some mechanical components? Is there some reason to mention then to the fact that the russians 'strengthened' a shell that share no parts with the car that Spac asked about?

[hakosuka]

The 124 Sport was called the "124" Sport becasue it was based on the 124 sedan. Simple!

The sedan's chassis type was called 124A or 124B (for the twin headlight "S" model. Not sure what the model code was for the 124 T with the twin cam (like a smaller 125 in effect).

The coupes were 124 AC (C for coupe naturally) BC 1400 & 1600, and CC 1600 & 1800. Oz only got the 1800 CC and 1400 BC's are rare here. Many euro spec cars are 4 speeds. All the Oz ones were 5 speed. The convertibles were AS, BS, and CS.

The russians strengthened their equivalent of the 124 sedan, and their modifications were not then incorporated into the coupes. The 4 link coil rear update over the earlier twin trailing links + panhard rod was the only real update that came about from Fiats' testing is hard conditions with the Russians etc.

Floody, the only was a 1600 will dramatically outhandle a 2002 is a 1600 with a fair bit of modification. In standard form the 2002 was globally recognised as just about the best handling small car in its day, if you don't include the exotica. The 1600's were good, but lets' not rewrite history shall we?

The only 2002 that could produce around 300 HP were the Kugelfisher injected turbo ( called TIK) ones that were raced in the early 1970's. OZ never go the twin carb Ti, only the injected Tii (the one I would get). The Schnitzer twin cam head cost megabucks even in the early 1970's. The 300 HP figure from a non turbo 2 litre with this head is a little be exagerated. :D

The 1.6 version with this head had around 200 HP, and I read a UK article about a 2002 with this engine in regard to the 2002 celebrations in Munich

[2002 turbo]

All the cars mentioned sound like good starting points, well maybe except for the Volvo!:D
I have two 2002s, they both aren't finished but the one in the pic which is turbocharged nearly is!
The 2002 is a good little car but some parts can cost quite a bit,
BMW wants crazy money for things like exterior trimming, bonnet insulation etc. The brake boosters can cost quite a bit to have reconditioned if they are faulty too
The M10 motor is pretty good, in Tii form they made 130 bhp with good torque but if you want to play with it forget it, modifying the Kugelfischer pump is very costly and not worth it. However a Tii is fitted with better 4 spot calipers, bigger struts and bigger fuel lines, so they form a good base for modification and EFI conversions. Pretty simple to do up but depends how much you want to spend, with twin carbs, exhaust, Tii pistons and a shaved head for more comp plus a good cam, light weight flywheel will give you about 165 bhp which may not sound heaps but in a little car is heaps of fun!If the track is your thing and you want to go real quick the sump will need some decent baffle plates too.

5 speeds gearboxes can be fitted from the E21 which still has the speedo drive in the gearbox, E30 318i don't have this. Short diff ratios are hard to come by, E21 diff parts fit but they're hard to find. Handling can be enhanced with the usual good German gear, Bilstein and Eibach still offer sports product for the model

As was said before the Schnitzer head is not common and is very expensive! Your better of getting an S14 from an E30 M3 if 16V is you thing but getting the extractors to clear the steering box is a pain in the arse!

Really depends on your budget, but for what you want they can be pretty fun.

[Dazz]

Not a totally sensible suggestion, but then again maybe no worse off for parts than your typical dodgy old Fiat or Alfa, but what about hunting down a nice original (I have seen them about) Mazda 1500/1800 SS?

Bertone styled, not overly heavy, slightly different, and IMHO one of the prettiest cars around at the time.

Of course a good 12A Twin Dizzy equipped RX-2 will eat any of the above but for me a nice 1800 SS would be a suitable option.

[hakosuka]

One of these would be even better


Pitty they are FWD and very rare though

[floody]

Hmmm,
yeah, I realise that standard a 2002 will outhandle a standard 1600 (but not by much), but the fact of the matter is the money that would buy a 2002 worth modifying/restoring, would probably get a highly restorable datto with quite extensive mods to the suspension and brakes- eg 240k struts and brakes, rear disks, konis etc......and probably a l series with some major poke. but if ya don't like em, fair enough.
But the cortina mk1 gt thing's a cool idea- Cheap, yep, they do rust, but they're a pretty simple car, they don't trap shit like the italians.....as far as I'm aware, and the kent 1500 motor is a pearler- the gt one has a slightly different cam and bigger exhaust valves than the stocky, and a different carb and manifold, but hell, they don't really matter, you'd be tossing them anyway. A set of 85mm bore pistons and new liners (maybe, some but not all 1500 engines get porous at that bore size) will give a seriously oversquare 1650cc,and with some headwork, a bit of compression, good fuel and twin 45s (and a good exhaust) the potential for GOOD power is there-these things out rev the 1600 engine by a mile. rods and cranks are pretty good, and there are things like gear timing drives , roller rockers, hardened pushrods, special valvesprings,even steel cranks and ti rods, anything you can think of still available out of england. It could be pretty easily made to handle as well as the rest of them too. Even better, get the same motor built up, and bung it into an anglia!!!! It'd weigh nothing, go like hell, and being short and comparatively wide, handle pretty acceptably with a few bolt ons. like a go kart with a funnny back window....
cheers,
floody

[floody]

Hey hakosuka, that corona in you're thread, what engine is in that? A 2t-g? if so then that would be a cheap quick car to build, just get a corona, get a 2tg from the jap wreckers (800-1100 for a carby one) and off you go. A guy that used to work in my folks' motrbike shop had one just like that, stripped out, race seats, lowered to the floor, stiff as suspension, locked diff etc....with a mega worked big bore cammed up 2tg, and f@ck me , that thing totally flew, an absolute screamer. it just flung itself around corners like a slot car, too. looked mad too, in black on polished auscar 15 inch five spokes.
cheers,
floody

[Spac]

While I do have a "thing" for the late sixties (and earlier) Jap cars, nah...

The Europeans had their act together so much better at that time... The Corona GT was probably the closest to the best (that I'm aware of, and that we can afford - don't want to hear about Skyline GT-Rs...) but how do they compare to even the Fiat? Possibly about equal, while not looking as good and not having the spares "backup" (LOL!) or quirkyness.

[Captiva Fan]

OK then, I just thought of something that's not really the same type of car as the others, but you might consider nutty enough to think about ... what about some form of engine conversion into a Fiat 850 with externals that make it look like an 850 Abarth?

I really like the classic lines, and the fact that they need this chunk o' wood stuck in the engine-cover to get enough cooling. There seems a reasonable amount of room in there, and you could surely stick a few different newer motors in that hole to get something that goes at least as well as an Abarth without the cash outlay? Or are Abarth 850's not worth as much as I think they are?