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lifting front inside wheel on turns.

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    #16
    And tyres are much better.... anyway. You know exactly what I mean.

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      #17
      But are wheel rates still the same?

      There is some weirdness with MacPherson struts I cannot get my head around and tunas just recommend ridiculous spring rates or want a consulting fee.
      Soft spring, big bar up front?
      Or stiff spring, reasonable/standard bar front?

      I don't believe there's is perfection. I'm not suspension guru and flip flop regularly. If you're lifting a front wheel exiting a corner, I think that alludes to what Roy said; you're getting good workout from your rear end. Is it stable, snappy, grippy? If you try to "fix" the front, you might just end up penalising yourself in other areas of the corner and resisting load transfer to the rear.

      One odd behaviour I have seen in a lot of cars especially BMWs, Nissans, older (tracked) Supras is the front end skids and bounces across the surface when braking/turning in. Surely this is because of the retarded spring rate and dampers they're running?

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        #18
        The big spring rates people recommend for strut frontends is just to try and get around the poor camber gain thats inherent in strut type suspension design.

        Soft spring, big bar will always ride better and work better on a rough surface for a given total roll stiffness.
        "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

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          #19
          My 2c.

          Run the softest springs you can get away with.

          What that is will depend on a few factors, but ultimately the stop watch. You can spend your life tuning the car to feel good in one problem corner only to make it a little bit worse in several others more than negating the gains.

          Ideal setup can vary depending on the particular course. (And driver style/preference.. )

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            #20
            Originally posted by gmx View Post

            There is some weirdness with MacPherson struts I cannot get my head around and tunas just recommend ridiculous spring rates or want a consulting fee.
            The weirdness you speak of is the roll centre height going under ground when you lower the ride height excessively on a MacPherson strut. This causes more body roll, which the uninformed try to correct with stiffer springs and roll bars. Problem is, the higher spring rate and roll stiffness reduces mechanical grip. The better solution is to put the roll centre back to as close to factory as possible.

            FWIW, my philosophy on his subject is exactly the same as 36, run the softest springs and roll bars you can get away with, compensate for body roll with more negative camber, and use the stopwatch to guide you to the optimum setup.

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              #21
              Is there a true certain way to calculate that for a given chassis. Or wheel rate for a given sprung and unsprung corner mass?
              Going much more complex and OT.. I found this online calculator/form for E46s: http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/FCM..._M3_Online.htm

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                #22
                The better method is to calculate or measure spring frequency. For a sedan with limited or no aero you want 1.5-2 Hz

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                  #23
                  That seals it for me. The "kit" I'm being pushed to would be 2.15hz which imo, is way too much regardless of good the damper is. Ty

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                    #24
                    You are welcome.

                    I just stumbled upon this article, which is relevant to this thread:

                    https://motoiq.com/how-to-make-crappy-cars-handle-well/

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                      #25
                      ^ good article. I actually read that a while ago. I'm not lowered, and probably not going to.

                      bp, are you lowered?

                      On the forums I'm seeing the same argument, "when lowered -> messes with roll centre". Well yeah this applies in compression during cornering for sure. But I'm not a stance cunt so what happens if I just stay with my superior German geometry ride height and travel? lol.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by Sprinkles View Post
                        Back in the day, RX3's in particular seemed to drive everywhere on three wheels, and were still quick. It's not ideal, but it's more important that the car feels balanced on that track.

                        You could dial it out by reducing front roll stiffness and increasing rear roll stiffness, and find the car goes slower because it oversteers more.

                        Just check there's enough droop from static ride height too.
                        It was reckoned to be the best way when live axles were the standard gun set up. Lift the front to load the rear and maximise traction. With fancy diffs, IRS and sticky wider tyres that might not apply so much now, keep it flat and maximise all contact patches?

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by gmx View Post
                          ^ good article. I actually read that a while ago. I'm not lowered, and probably not going to.

                          bp, are you lowered?

                          On the forums I'm seeing the same argument, "when lowered -> messes with roll centre". Well yeah this applies in compression during cornering for sure. But I'm not a stance cunt so what happens if I just stay with my superior German geometry ride height and travel? lol.
                          Only slightly lowered. Iíve check all the arm angles, bump steer, and got rid of most of the anti squat out rear too.
                          I want to get more consistent with times then start playing with bump and rebound against the clock.
                          Itís already pretty fast and forgiving so I donít want to change too much.
                          code
                          Originally Posted by Tut
                          THEY SHOULD ANALYY RAPE THEMSELVES WITH A FUCING CACTUS UPSIDE DOWN WITH COCONIUTS AND PINEABPPLES AS CHRISTMAS BALLS THE FUCKNIG THIEVENG CUNTS ID RATHER DIE FROM HAVING A RAINBOW UNICORN URETHRALLY RAPE ME THAN TO FUCKNIG DO BUSINESS WITH THEM CUTNST EVER AGAN

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by bp18t View Post
                            Will i die?
                            Eventually yes. But from aids, not cocking a wheel during hillclimbs...

                            If it's fast and feels solid cornering go with it. Trying to fix it will probably fuck the balance you have now if it's only getting slight oversteer....
                            The older i get, the better i was...

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                              #29
                              With car set up you can fall into a bit of a trap, where if something feels good to the driver, you go too far in that direction. The Escort handled pretty much as you described and the driver thought it was awesome "because it is getting so much drive out of the corners which is very important on hill climbs." Which is true, up to a point. It stops being true when the driver is focussing on the drive out of corners, he is maximizing that, but neglecting the corner up to the apex. Good drive feels good, so more drive must be better. Except it isn't if all you're doing is making up for lost corner speed.

                              The stop watch tells no lies.

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